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RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1101: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:19:25 PM

[up][up] If we go through the correct procedures and don't have a unilateral administrative rename, the chances of that getting past the single proposition crowner stage are minuscule.

edited 14th Jul '11 1:19:44 PM by RainyDaze

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1102: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:20:13 PM

Well, for one thing, it provides an implicit justification for continuing to use Japanese terms for non-Japanese concepts.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1103: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:20:19 PM

[up][up]This would be a unilateral admin rename. That's what I'm trying to point out.

[up] Wait, what? That's the opposite of what I read.

edited 14th Jul '11 1:20:53 PM by Discar

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#1104: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:24:11 PM

I think this is only to be a question in cases where both English and anime/manga fandom have different terms for the same concept.

For example, each as a different phrase for a cute clumsy girl (Cute Clumsy Girl and Dojikko). But in cases where there is only the one term being used, use the one term (so we can all say Tsundere).

Make sense?

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#1105: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:25:32 PM

Who are 'we all'? Tsundere would only be used in an anime context.

edited 14th Jul '11 1:25:39 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#1106: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:27:11 PM

What's the non-Japanese term for it then? If there is one, I'm all fine for using it, but I've seen Tsundere used on trope pages for all sorts of media, and I don't think it's just the anime/manga fans using it.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1107: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:27:16 PM

[up][up]&[up] Not this again...

Has anyone compiled a list of all reasons given yet? =/

edited 14th Jul '11 1:27:31 PM by RainyDaze

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#1108: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:28:10 PM

If there isn't an English word for it, it is not a trope for English material. All things occurring in English can be described with English.

edited 14th Jul '11 1:28:51 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#1109: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:31:45 PM

So basically Tsundere would apply to Inuyasha but there'd be a seperate trope for the same character type in Superman? Or is there going to be a redirect (with the general one as the main name) that serves that purpose?

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1110: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:32:36 PM

Can all things occurring in English be described in English in a way that works, though? Also, chances are that despite the majority of Tsundere examples coming from Japanese media, the page would be renamed for... no apparent reason. The minority would be using a redirect but that's hardly a problem, is it? Still makes sense wherever it's used. Renaming the page would lead to more redirects than direct links, which seems kind of silly.

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#1111: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:32:58 PM

I didn't think that it was an issue of whether or not Tsundere was a trope in English-language media. I mean, there are subpages for comics, film, literature, theater (with requisite zeroth law example leading off)... it just looks like everyone is using the Japanese term regardless of the country of origin.

It's quite obviously a trope that's existed for ages in media. But everyone is using the Japanese name.

[up]I'd have to sort through the subpages, but I think, between all the examples, that the majority of examples are not from Japan in the trope anymore.

EDIT: Correction, Japanese examples are still the majority, but not an overwhelmingly large one. It wouldn't take that much work to tip the ratio the other way.

edited 14th Jul '11 1:43:58 PM by 32_Footsteps

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#1112: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:34:27 PM

Because that's the only name that exists.

Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#1113: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:36:29 PM

I have an idea. Similar to what was said earlier.

Let's keep the Japanese VS English terms usage as suggested earlier.

However, for any words that don't have any good English equivalents, they could be exceptions to that rule. And only those. It might take a bit of work, even a Rules setup to remind people of those, but it could work.

Quest 64 thread
Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#1114: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:40:17 PM

Actually Eddie's idea is likely a very good solution, as it would refer to characters as (for example) Tsundere in mediums where they are actually acknowledged as being that term. Since the title carries along with it the implicit Japanese-culural connotations, it resolves the issue where originally English language works feel like they're shoe-horned into a specfic Japanese flavored concept.

It would be treating Tsundere as a kind of Sub-Trope to the Runs Hot And Cold archetype, which is something I've always thought should have been done in the first place. Just like how Kitsune is a subtrope of the Spirit Fox archetype.

So far I'm liking it.

edited 14th Jul '11 1:43:49 PM by Meeble

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1115: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:42:32 PM

Why? It is being used correctly. The Japanese got rights to the name because they named it first, no other reason. It's same reason we use Deus ex Machina—it existed long before the name was coined, but that's what stuck. There's no need to insist that it only be used for Japanese works.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#1116: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:45:46 PM

No, stuff like Tsundere is the specific problem. I've read the thing a hundred time trying to make it come out as something other than as a person who cycles between aloof and lovestruck. There has be a good name for that in English. Mercurial is one. Anyway, there is no need to apply Japanese to the naming of the trope.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1117: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:49:11 PM

And there is no need to change a working name. This is number one on the renaming guidelines. It keeps the wiki from being mercurial, to use your own word. Yes, there are probably adequate English replacements. But the Japanese one is working, so there is no need to remove it.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1118: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:49:43 PM

There's no need to completely rename the trope if we're going to use two names anyway, just seems like a lot of extra effort for no reward. People will link to whichever name they feel like off site, they'll use the appropriate one on-site, and there's one description. Completely renaming it is being randomly pedantic. >_>

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#1119: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:50:48 PM

Mercurial's definiton.

Given the specific moods involved in the trope ("mercurial" doesn't specify which moods at all), and the fact that the moods indicated in the trope are predictible, I don't think that's the right word.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#1120: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:53:28 PM

I think Tsundere is a far more nuanced trope than Eddie quite gets.

Maybe instead we ought to work on identifying a supertrope that Tsundere would fall under. Tsundere would then be limited mostly (not entirely, you know how tropes spread) to anime and manga. Something along the lines of Bipolar Romantic or something like that. (Hooray for pulling random names out of thin air!)

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#1121: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:59:54 PM

I just was using Tsundere as an example. If I had my way, I would actually make something like Runs Hot And Cold Love Interest a supertrope with a much smaller description, and have Tsundere as a subtrope that gets into all the Japanese cultural stuff.

But anyway, I think the advantages to Eddie's suggestion are three-fold: It improves clarity for those unfamiliar with Japanese terms to see something referenced in understandable language, it maintains accuracy in Japanese-media related examples by allowing things to be accurately referred to with the terminology fans of that media use, and it could very well lay to rest the near constant TRS debates about these particular tropes.

Everyone wins.

edit: Ninja'd. GMTLM, Totemic. :)

edited 14th Jul '11 2:02:28 PM by Meeble

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
revolution11 from A State of Confusion Since: Feb, 2011
#1122: Jul 14th 2011 at 2:01:09 PM

[up]Yes, tsundere is a specific type of the mercurial love relationship. Tsundere would work as a subtrope.

[up]Ninja'd.

edited 14th Jul '11 2:01:18 PM by revolution11

Think Of The Ewoks.....
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1123: Jul 14th 2011 at 2:01:44 PM

@Totemic Hero: It's not that nuanced. Tropes are, at their heart, simple. The attempts to "nuance" it smack of No True Scotsman designed to protect a myopic view of the concept as exclusive to Japanese media.

edited 14th Jul '11 2:02:42 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1124: Jul 14th 2011 at 2:03:30 PM

Tsundere has about a dozen subpages, for all media types. It is being used correctly in those media types. There is nothing anywhere that says this is a Japanese-only trope, or that the character has to be specifically called a Tsundere, or anything like that. I do not understand what problem this trope has that warrants a rename. It says right there in the Renaming Guidelines that personal opinion is not a good reason to rename.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
revolution11 from A State of Confusion Since: Feb, 2011
#1125: Jul 14th 2011 at 2:04:15 PM

[up][up]So there can't be a Japanese version of a trope? Tropes can be simple but some tropes have cultural connotations integral to their description.

Discar, I think the push for "clarity" overrides the Guidelines in the admin's POV. Despite the lack of evidence for this needed clarity.

edited 14th Jul '11 2:07:00 PM by revolution11

Think Of The Ewoks.....

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