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Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#1076: Jul 14th 2011 at 10:01:34 AM

@Fighteer 1071: While I can see the point of that, you have to admit that it's a bit of a paradigm shift in regards to how we've done things in the past, with heavy favor given to pre-existing terms.

Like I said, though, as long as we come up with a standard that is applied consistently, I can live with whatever direction we take it. The reason I started asking about these types of examples is so that we can get some type of understanding as to where this is headed.

edited 14th Jul '11 10:02:04 AM by Meeble

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MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#1077: Jul 14th 2011 at 10:02:16 AM

Narm isn't exactly the best example because Bathos was split off into a separate trope earlier this year.

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#1078: Jul 14th 2011 at 10:06:34 AM

I guess there isn't a technical term that describes Narm precisely? OK.

IMO the established term should be the primary title that sees the most use. To do otherwise feels like dumbing down, to me, and I'm not sure the convenience of being initially easy to comprehend outweighs the inconvenience to those either familiar with the established term or interested in studying the trope in more depth.

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chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#1079: Jul 14th 2011 at 10:08:22 AM

I think we should use the proper term so we can teach it to people. By documenting tropes and concepts, we are educating people about them.

Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#1080: Jul 14th 2011 at 10:12:51 AM

For what it's worth, I do agree with Bobby here. This feels like an overcorrection for a perceived problem.

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chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#1081: Jul 14th 2011 at 10:17:31 AM

In my opinion, the whole problem that Fast Eddie think exists does not, since we're yet to see evidence.

juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#1082: Jul 14th 2011 at 10:21:52 AM

I think there're some issues with some tropes being searchable, but I think there're hardly many titles which cause that most trouble to understanding a trope. And they seem to be quickly corrected anyway.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#1083: Jul 14th 2011 at 10:37:19 AM

Enforcing misleading, word cruft, Laconic As A Trope Title etc titles on people is really going to make people get mad. When people wick redirects far more than trope main title there will be a huge problem. Pre-existing term (the one people will most likely want to use) should be main title and the rest of the crap in redirects. (Osana whatever is getting a rename right now and the crowner has a word cruft trope title that is completely unrelated to the trope.... And that's the way most of them are going to go.)

Also Lesbian Romance is a super trope to Yuri which already exists with the badly neglected and very rudely titled Queer Romance trope again it's different... And Girls' Love was in English with girls love which is the only other name people called the genre before well.

edited 14th Jul '11 10:47:41 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#1084: Jul 14th 2011 at 10:59:48 AM

Osananajimi (and similarly named tropes) is a little different, IMO; it's not a technical term, it's simply a word, albeit a word from another language. If the proposed replacement title is misleading, I suspect that means that the description isn't sufficiently clear.

I don't think Queer Romance is supposed to be rude; I think it's meant in the reclamatory sense, as is used in the term "Queer Theory".

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Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#1085: Jul 14th 2011 at 11:07:19 AM

Oh I am all for the rename it's as bad as Nakama ( it means childhood friend, not the trope we are using it for, as well as it's not a pre-existing term.) just no one can come up with a name so it's going to end up with "patient childhood friend" which the first word is unrelated to the trope a character named trope would be more helpful ><.

edited 14th Jul '11 11:10:32 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1086: Jul 14th 2011 at 11:07:48 AM

Plus Osananajimi was broken. It was pretty much a brand-new trope, and 90% of the wicks were wrong. Hell, most of the examples on the page were wrong.

Also, I've always thought "queer" was insulting, which is part of why I added Gay Romance and Lesbian Romance as redirects. But everyone keeps saying its not, so I guess its not a big deal.

Ninja'ed

edited 14th Jul '11 11:08:12 AM by Discar

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#1087: Jul 14th 2011 at 11:09:54 AM

Queer is not rude. Queer is what the group calls itself. It is the PC term.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#1088: Jul 14th 2011 at 11:13:38 AM

[up][up] Brought that up a bit too which got ignored.

[up] Only if it's the group who says the word not anyone else, it's like N-Word Privileges.

Here is a question is there a way to say if you click on a redirect and go to that page it will display the redirect's title? That way any actual link to the page is the trope name. (And a laconic line right below the title.)

edited 14th Jul '11 11:51:56 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#1089: Jul 14th 2011 at 11:25:05 AM

[up] No, it's everyone. It's what the group wants to be referred to as. Calling them something else is rude. I'm queer myself. I'm part of the community. It's currently the collective term used for a number of different things including Gay, Lesbian, Bi, transgender and genderqueer individuals.

Gay and Lesbian are exclusive terms. They don't cover the entire scope. Queer media is what it's called by the community, and what the community wants it to be referred as.

edited 14th Jul '11 11:28:02 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#1090: Jul 14th 2011 at 11:30:59 AM

I could be misunderstanding things here, but I don't see much benefits in making our own term the main title. A concept may have an "unintuitive" name, but we shouldn't "improve" it by demoting the term to a redirect and using our own. It should be the other way around.

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#1091: Jul 14th 2011 at 11:37:18 AM

Using the word "queer" might be dependant on who you talk to. I've been told very specifically that I do not have Q Word Privileges, and my homosexual friends were shocked when I told them my mom uses the word at times to mean "strange" (because, where and when she grew up, it was merely a synonym for that). They accepted that my mom wasn't being rude by it, but still noted that I would know better and shouldn't say that.

To be honest, "gay," "lesbian," and "homosexual" are the only words I've seen that appear at all neutral/not subject to privileged words, so any tropes dealing with that attraction to the same gender should probably stick to those three.

edited 14th Jul '11 11:37:45 AM by 32_Footsteps

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#1092: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:01:42 PM

Let's try for a compromise. Let's make it so anime slang can be used, but only in an anime context. That means in the section of an examples list devoted to anime, or in an article describing the slang, and only for things that are purely anime.

Meaning that we don't have to learn what baka means to understand a trope used in general science fiction, for example.

How's that sound?

edited 14th Jul '11 1:02:28 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
revolution11 from A State of Confusion Since: Feb, 2011
#1093: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:08:17 PM

Fine with that. Example = Japanese words should not be appearing in Shakespeare discussions.

edited 14th Jul '11 1:08:56 PM by revolution11

Think Of The Ewoks.....
Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#1094: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:09:26 PM

To clarify the proposal: would this apply to all types of Japanese works?

Say for example, Kitsune is featured in a Visual Novel or a Japanese-made Samurai epic Live Action TV Series, would it be allowed to mention the trope in the appropriate section as part of the example?

Or would Kitsune only be allowed to be referenced strictly in discussions about Anime and Manga?

edited 14th Jul '11 1:10:12 PM by Meeble

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FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#1095: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:10:49 PM

Yes. No need to tip-toe around it. This issue is directly related Japan-sourced or heavily Japan-inspired material.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#1096: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:12:07 PM

In that case, I think something like that could be workable. I'll think on it further.

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#1097: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:15:56 PM

So, to give an example, you can list the main character of Read Or Die as a Meganekko, but Velma from Scooby Doo is to be listed as a Glasses Girl?

Eh... workable. It beats some of the alternatives.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1098: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:16:32 PM

'[up] Given that shonen, seinen, shoujo, and such are all exclusively anime and manga related, does that mean we can stop trying to rename them. =/'

Yes, I'm aware of the fact that should be a question mark.

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1099: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:17:57 PM

Why specific to Japan? We have plenty of foreign-named tropes, including Japanese, that are doing fine. Yes, this compromise solves the Shonen/Shojo/Seinen/Josei problem, but it brings up new ones. Now someone is going to try and rename Tsundere because it's not Japanese exclusive, despite the fact that its working fine.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
revolution11 from A State of Confusion Since: Feb, 2011
#1100: Jul 14th 2011 at 1:19:06 PM

Is this a specific proposal or can this apply to other fields? What I mean is do obscure literary terms like Roman à Clef belong in literary discussions?

[up]That's true. Trope performance should have precedence. If everyone understands the trope (no misuse) and it is standard usage on the Internet, it should be fine.

edited 14th Jul '11 1:20:57 PM by revolution11

Think Of The Ewoks.....

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