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TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#1051: Jul 14th 2011 at 8:53:46 AM

Let's apply your own litmus test from the other thread then, Eddie. What about the name Roman à Clef gives your average viewer a clue to what the trope is about?

I certainly don't see anything.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#1053: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:21:29 AM

For that matter, how does "Novel with a key" (Roman à Clef's translation) give a clue to what the trope is about.

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Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#1054: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:31:10 AM

I don't know. I thought Roman à Clef is a fairly popular term. I support keeping these kinds of terms since that's how people use them even in English. (This applies to Japanese terms too.)

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32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#1055: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:32:14 AM

Good news: I was quite familiar with the term "roman a clef" well before coming to TV Tropes.

Bad news: It's because I was a French major in college.

Here's one to hash out, because it's pertinent, though - roman a clef is an accepted term for the style of writing. It's a term used both in the publishing industry and in critical analysis of literature. In short, it's a pre-existing industry term.

The problem with the name is that it hasn't taken root much outside of said industry and those that closely follow it (I've seen occasional references to "cinema a clef" for a film version, but by no means is that common even in said industry). At what point does "industry term" override the need to make a trope title clear for everyone?

(The answer, obviously, is when we all start saying "Narm" over "Bathos".)

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chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#1056: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:34:01 AM

[up] Do both writers and fans use it? That's the case with Shonen and Girl's Love. If not, I have no idea what to do with that title.

In Medias Res is acceptable because it's referred to more often, and it's a term taught in English class.

edited 14th Jul '11 9:34:53 AM by chihuahua0

FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#1057: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:34:24 AM

Hey, I don't give a rat's ass about Roman a Clef. If they aren't teaching it in schools anymore, I'm sure we could come up with a better name. Like Novel With A Key.

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Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1058: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:35:40 AM

[up][up][up] Note that Roman à Clef does have a number of helpful redirects, which should always be done for obtuse names like that.

edited 14th Jul '11 9:35:52 AM by Discar

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#1059: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:36:55 AM

^^ Then I repeat my question...

For that matter, how does "Novel with a key" (Roman à Clef's translation) give a clue to what the trope is about?

edited 14th Jul '11 9:37:38 AM by juancarlos

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shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#1060: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:38:07 AM

[up] Because that's actually what the trope is. It's a novel, with a key to explain who the characters are in Real Life.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#1061: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:40:28 AM

Yes, but you already knew that. I didn't, and I had to look it up.

My point is simply that translating things doesn't always make them clearer and that when it comes to these terms, it's better to not go and isolate ourselves from almost every single other encyclopedia/users/etc etc in order to supposedly be clearer.

Because, let's face it, if you just saw that title for the first time and didn't know what the key meant, would you immediately think that it is what it is supposed to be?

edited 14th Jul '11 9:41:35 AM by juancarlos

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BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#1062: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:42:59 AM

If we don't want to force our own jargon on people, why would we want to rename something like Roman à Clef or In Medias Res, names which long predate the site? All that achieves is giving people who are seriously interested in the concepts two new terms to learn, instead of just the one.

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RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1063: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:44:07 AM

I always think it's talking about Ancient Roman music...

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#1064: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:48:52 AM

We can leave redirects for the obscure terms that you are only likely to encounter if you have deep or highly technical knowledge of a particular field. Doesn't mean we can't give them a more general, accessible name.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#1065: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:49:21 AM

^^^ Sorry if I'm not being clear, but that's precisely what I mean. All I'm saying is that if we hypothetically translate Roman à Clef to "Novel With a Key" we wouldn't suddenly make any clearer what the trope meant, that's all.

Not only that, but anyone in the know would be dumbfounded, which is a con.

^ While I sort of agree with that, the problem with that is that the trope name is the one that gets prominent. I mean, sure, Bathos leads to Narm, but you wouldn't know it by reading the wiki.

edited 14th Jul '11 9:50:35 AM by juancarlos

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Lost in Space
#1066: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:50:43 AM

[up] Yes, that's true (your first point). So we need a more usable general title, like Biography With The Names Changed.

Regarding your second point, people don't do themselves any favors by taking an obscure, hard to remember word and turning it into jargon within their particular circle of admirers. That only serves to exclude people by making it seem as if they have this cute little private club. By giving tropes accessible names, we can introduce people to the concepts first and the jargon second. There's no reason we can't say, "this is known in literary circles as Roman à Clef."

edited 14th Jul '11 9:53:12 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#1067: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:51:21 AM

[up][up] In short, the only thing that would change that the fact that it's in English. And that's terrible.

edited 14th Jul '11 9:51:38 AM by chihuahua0

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#1068: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:52:46 AM

[up][up][up] Exactly. Most of these name changes are done in such a way that no one can find or identify the trope they're looking for. If you know what the term is, you can't find it because we don't use it. If you don't know what the term is, the English name isn't clear.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#1069: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:53:55 AM

Admittedly, I suppose Roman à Clef is a bit of a false friend, but that's Madeleine de Scudéry's fault, not ours. I still feel that the existing word should be the main title, perhaps with a more intuitive redirect, rather than the reverse.

What is the point in making people who are seriously interested in the concept learn two names, when they need learn only the one?

(Narm is a particularly awful example IMO, but I know better than to try to change it at this stage. It's been around long enough that it doesn't sound weird to me anymore, but it's not an intuitive term, and anyone who is seriously interested in the concept and wants to research it further will still end up having to learn the term Bathos as well.)

edited 14th Jul '11 9:56:33 AM by BobbyG

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juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#1070: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:56:01 AM

Regarding your second point, people don't do themselves any favors by taking an obscure, hard to remember word and turning it into jargon within their particular circle of admirers. That only serves to exclude people by making it seem as if they have this cute little private club. By giving tropes accessible names, we can introduce people to the concepts first and the jargon second. There's no reason we can't say, "this is known in literary circles as Roman à Clef."

Hmmm, I guess you're right on that one.

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Lost in Space
#1071: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:56:06 AM

[up][up] We aren't trying to appeal only to those with a scholarly bent. If nobody who isn't already familiar with it can find the trope because they have no clue what it's called, it's never going to gain widespread appreciation.

edited 14th Jul '11 9:57:05 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1073: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:59:08 AM

The primary title is what it will be best known by. You can keep Roman à Clef a searchable redirect, like we could (in theory, if people weren't being so hard-nosed about it) make Yuri a redirect to Lesbian Romance. That way people who come here straight from a college textbook or anime club can still find the trope, but the majority of us can use it like we would any other straightforward title. Just Shoot Him, for example.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#1074: Jul 14th 2011 at 9:59:31 AM

Well, it does get taught in schools... it's just usually considered a comparatively minor writing style which has fallen out of favor. It's about as popular overall for teaching purposes as the Epistolary Novel... it's just that, since it's not really all that influential for much of modern literature, and movements (such as Romanticism and Modernism) are usually much more interesting for analysis purposes, they're not given too much attention outside of courses dedicated to them. (Says the guy who actually took an entire grad-level course on epistolary novels.)

Personally, I think using industry terms is the appropriate thing to do. For one, why reinvent the wheel? For another, we can always use redirects if people want something a bit more common to use. Finally, I think it hews much closer to the wiki's mission to hew as close to what we cover as we can.

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juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#1075: Jul 14th 2011 at 10:00:02 AM

The thing is that we should strive to be appealing and understandable to the average reader.

However, of course, the best choice is to always use a pre-existing term, in my opinion as it's bound to be understood by most.

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