For that matter, how does "Novel with a key" (Roman à Clef's translation) give a clue to what the trope is about.
"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.I don't know. I thought Roman à Clef is a fairly popular term. I support keeping these kinds of terms since that's how people use them even in English. (This applies to Japanese terms too.)
The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.Good news: I was quite familiar with the term "roman a clef" well before coming to TV Tropes.
Bad news: It's because I was a French major in college.
Here's one to hash out, because it's pertinent, though - roman a clef is an accepted term for the style of writing. It's a term used both in the publishing industry and in critical analysis of literature. In short, it's a pre-existing industry term.
The problem with the name is that it hasn't taken root much outside of said industry and those that closely follow it (I've seen occasional references to "cinema a clef" for a film version, but by no means is that common even in said industry). At what point does "industry term" override the need to make a trope title clear for everyone?
(The answer, obviously, is when we all start saying "Narm" over "Bathos".)
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.Hey, I don't give a rat's ass about Roman a Clef. If they aren't teaching it in schools anymore, I'm sure we could come up with a better name. Like Novel With A Key.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty![]()
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Note that Roman à Clef does have a number of helpful redirects, which should always be done for obtuse names like that.
edited 14th Jul '11 9:35:52 AM by Discar
Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Because that's actually what the trope is. It's a novel, with a key to explain who the characters are in Real Life.
Yes, but you already knew that. I didn't, and I had to look it up.
My point is simply that translating things doesn't always make them clearer and that when it comes to these terms, it's better to not go and isolate ourselves from almost every single other encyclopedia/users/etc etc in order to supposedly be clearer.
Because, let's face it, if you just saw that title for the first time and didn't know what the key meant, would you immediately think that it is what it is supposed to be?
edited 14th Jul '11 9:41:35 AM by juancarlos
"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.If we don't want to force our own jargon on people, why would we want to rename something like Roman à Clef or In Medias Res, names which long predate the site? All that achieves is giving people who are seriously interested in the concepts two new terms to learn, instead of just the one.
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The StaffWe can leave redirects for the obscure terms that you are only likely to encounter if you have deep or highly technical knowledge of a particular field. Doesn't mean we can't give them a more general, accessible name.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"^^^ Sorry if I'm not being clear, but that's precisely what I mean. All I'm saying is that if we hypothetically translate Roman à Clef to "Novel With a Key" we wouldn't suddenly make any clearer what the trope meant, that's all.
Not only that, but anyone in the know would be dumbfounded, which is a con.
^ While I sort of agree with that, the problem with that is that the trope name is the one that gets prominent. I mean, sure, Bathos leads to Narm, but you wouldn't know it by reading the wiki.
edited 14th Jul '11 9:50:35 AM by juancarlos
"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
Yes, that's true (your first point). So we need a more usable general title, like Biography With The Names Changed.
Regarding your second point, people don't do themselves any favors by taking an obscure, hard to remember word and turning it into jargon within their particular circle of admirers. That only serves to exclude people by making it seem as if they have this cute little private club. By giving tropes accessible names, we can introduce people to the concepts first and the jargon second. There's no reason we can't say, "this is known in literary circles as Roman à Clef."
edited 14th Jul '11 9:53:12 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"![]()
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Exactly. Most of these name changes are done in such a way that no one can find or identify the trope they're looking for. If you know what the term is, you can't find it because we don't use it. If you don't know what the term is, the English name isn't clear.
Admittedly, I suppose Roman à Clef is a bit of a false friend, but that's Madeleine de Scudéry's fault, not ours. I still feel that the existing word should be the main title, perhaps with a more intuitive redirect, rather than the reverse.
What is the point in making people who are seriously interested in the concept learn two names, when they need learn only the one?
(Narm is a particularly awful example IMO, but I know better than to try to change it at this stage. It's been around long enough that it doesn't sound weird to me anymore, but it's not an intuitive term, and anyone who is seriously interested in the concept and wants to research it further will still end up having to learn the term Bathos as well.)
edited 14th Jul '11 9:56:33 AM by BobbyG
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The StaffHmmm, I guess you're right on that one.
"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.![]()
We aren't trying to appeal only to those with a scholarly bent. If nobody who isn't already familiar with it can find the trope because they have no clue what it's called, it's never going to gain widespread appreciation.
edited 14th Jul '11 9:57:05 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"But that's what redirects are for.
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The StaffThe primary title is what it will be best known by. You can keep Roman à Clef a searchable redirect, like we could (in theory, if people weren't being so hard-nosed about it) make Yuri a redirect to Lesbian Romance. That way people who come here straight from a college textbook or anime club can still find the trope, but the majority of us can use it like we would any other straightforward title. Just Shoot Him, for example.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Well, it does get taught in schools... it's just usually considered a comparatively minor writing style which has fallen out of favor. It's about as popular overall for teaching purposes as the Epistolary Novel... it's just that, since it's not really all that influential for much of modern literature, and movements (such as Romanticism and Modernism) are usually much more interesting for analysis purposes, they're not given too much attention outside of courses dedicated to them. (Says the guy who actually took an entire grad-level course on epistolary novels.)
Personally, I think using industry terms is the appropriate thing to do. For one, why reinvent the wheel? For another, we can always use redirects if people want something a bit more common to use. Finally, I think it hews much closer to the wiki's mission to hew as close to what we cover as we can.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.The thing is that we should strive to be appealing and understandable to the average reader.
However, of course, the best choice is to always use a pre-existing term, in my opinion as it's bound to be understood by most.
"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.

Let's apply your own litmus test from the other thread then, Eddie. What about the name Roman à Clef gives your average viewer a clue to what the trope is about?
I certainly don't see anything.
Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)