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The growing problem of inscrutable titles and text

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Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1001: Jul 12th 2011 at 6:37:03 PM

Okay, I see what you mean. You meant pre-existing as in how Alien Space Bats is a pre-existing term that doesn't really make any sense, right?

I still don't think making a big list of all those is really going to help. It wouldn't be worth the effort. I mean, unless we have a big index of "Tropes Named After Pre Existing Terms" that I don't know about.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#1002: Jul 12th 2011 at 6:47:10 PM

[up][up][up][up] Alright. Dropping the matter of Yuri Genre's rename for now.

[up][up] That sounds reasonable. That is what Special Efforts is there for, right?

On a related note, there is an issue that has yet to be addressed: The use of the custom-title tool to forcibly rename every Pot Hole of a given trope across the wiki that is not in the form of [[WikiWord Wiki Word]], regardless of the resulting confusion and grammatical/contextual errors, instead of the usual procedure of having the troper community manually fix the Pot Holes and adjust the surrounding text accordingly. It's been done with two tropes so far: Yuri Genre and Shōnen (renamed Shōnen Genre, currently undergoing Crowner voting for more a accurate name here), and I do not need to reiterate how this development was recieved; to be clear, at least one Mod has agreed that this use of the custom-title feature is of questionable validity.

edited 12th Jul '11 6:47:39 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Prfnoff Since: Jan, 2001
#1003: Jul 12th 2011 at 6:50:47 PM

[up][up]No, we don't have a big index of "Tropes Named After Pre Existing Terms". We used to, though. (Guess who cut it.)

edited 12th Jul '11 6:51:02 PM by Prfnoff

Auxdarastrix Since: May, 2010
#1004: Jul 12th 2011 at 6:58:04 PM

Speaking in broadly general terms about this push toward "clarity".

If an individual trope title is causing a problem, take it to TRS, and put it up to a vote. Some will get changed, but I suspect that sometimes the readership will prefer some of the better established catchy terms to some bland overly long phrase. Then again, I would suspect that the predominate readership for TRS is a bit more... pedantic and polemical than your average reader and non-editor of TV Tropes. Unfortunately there really is no way to be certain what ordinary internet users prefer when it comes to our titles. I'm just afraid that we risk becoming a "Stuffy Encyclopedic Wiki" and not a informal one that values breezy language.

Of course, I also suspect that our readership tends to have a higher proportion of people that value language, analyzing stories, learning and using interesting words and phrases, etc to a degree higher than the "Average Internet User" that spends all their time looking at other types of things.

I mean, I could start up a TRS on, Luke, I Am Your Father, arguing that it is

A) Dialogue

B) Uses a Character Name

C) Originates from a single insignificant fanbase, that our site does not exist to pander to.

D) Is not an Exactly What It Says on the Tin description of the trope that reveals the full meaning in the title.

E) Is a spoiler.

But does anyone seriously thing that our readers would like "Characters previously thought unrelated are revealed to be related" better? Personally, I think the Geek Value of the trope title works well for our audience.

edited 12th Jul '11 7:02:21 PM by Auxdarastrix

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1005: Jul 12th 2011 at 6:58:06 PM

Okay, I can see which way the wind is blowing on the Special Efforts thing. Lemme right up a quick mock-up before we actually start that thread:

Thread Title: Renaming Obtuse Pre-Existing Tropes

It has been noted in many places across the wiki that "pre-existing term" is not always adequate reason to avoid a rename. Here, we are going to collect those tropes that were not named by us and have little to do with what the trope is actually about. Then we will pull the trope to TRS, where we will determine if there is any misuse, whether that misuse is caused by the name, and if it should be renamed. Then we'll cross it off this list.

Only list the tropes here. We will discuss the actual renaming in the appropriate TRS threads.

end mock-up

How's that look?

EDIT: Ninja'ed. And I agree with [up]

edited 12th Jul '11 7:15:10 PM by Discar

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#1006: Jul 12th 2011 at 7:10:50 PM

Whoa whoa whoa!

When I said pre-existing tropes with obscure and confusing names, I meant pre-existing tropes with obscure and confusing names. I have no clue where you decided I said pre-existing terms (which would be a subset of this, but not the whole thing).

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#1007: Jul 12th 2011 at 7:13:30 PM

[up] Well, there's the whole "Shonen Genre" fiasco.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#1009: Jul 12th 2011 at 7:22:00 PM

[up][up] And on that subject...

edited 12th Jul '11 7:22:28 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Auxdarastrix Since: May, 2010
#1010: Jul 13th 2011 at 9:14:44 AM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Auxdarastrix Since: May, 2010
#1012: Jul 13th 2011 at 12:09:21 PM

Sorry. Anyway:

-Please no more renames without voting as to whether we need a rename to begin with.

-If the administration is going to become a stickler about trope names, maybe we need a way of getting official approval for new tropes and their names before they are launched, so we have no more instances like the with Tiny Tyranical Tsundere were we spent a great deal of time trying to come up with a name that matches the existing guideline about avoiding tropes named after characters only to have the article cut within days of launch because of a rule we did not know about.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#1013: Jul 13th 2011 at 12:17:05 PM

Also, no more use of custom titles to force every redirect (including the old name) to conform to the new name. Saying that it's bad form is putting it mildly.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#1015: Jul 13th 2011 at 12:26:19 PM

The "no more's" I'm interested in are no more dialog-like titles and no more inscrutable text caused by inscrutable trope names.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#1016: Jul 13th 2011 at 12:34:25 PM

[up] That would need some clarification; for the first, where do tropes like Shut Up, Hannibal! and "I Know You're in There Somewhere" Fight stand? For the second, we need some basic criteria to determine what counts and what does not count as "inscrutable" (otherwise it would be left to the opinions of individual tropers, many of which are purely subjective), as well as confirmation that it should be done a case-by-case basis rather than a blanket jugdment and forced rename of a group of trope names with some common factor connecting them.

edited 13th Jul '11 12:34:58 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#1018: Jul 13th 2011 at 12:37:39 PM

Agreed, but those two tropes are not Stock Phrases, hence why I am asking.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#1019: Jul 13th 2011 at 12:40:27 PM

Shut Up, Hannibal! amuses me so I don't really mind it, though I guess that's a pretty weak reason.

"I Know You're in There Somewhere" Fight is not wholly dialogue, but I think it's a bit ugly and unwieldy all the same.

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TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#1020: Jul 13th 2011 at 12:49:12 PM

I think the debate on dialogue-named tropes should be kept to its thread. I don't think them being "inscrutable" is the main issue with them, so it's off-topic for this.

That said, Eddie, you are kind of side-stepping the issue of custom titles. Again, it's off topic for this thread, so I think you might want to post in the other thread to clarify your stance.

Now, can we get back to the actual issue this thread is supposed to be about?

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#1021: Jul 13th 2011 at 1:01:38 PM

Right. Inscrutability. As I have said before, we would first need the following to be fulfilled:

  • Sufficient criteria to determine what counts and what does not count as "inscrutable", otherwise it would be left to the opinions of individual tropers, many of which are purely subjective.
  • It should be done a case-by-case basis rather than a blanket jugdment and forced rename of a group of trope names with some common factor connecting them.

edited 13th Jul '11 1:02:01 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Auxdarastrix Since: May, 2010
#1022: Jul 13th 2011 at 1:49:54 PM

Marq just took what I was going to say. What exactly is the definition of "inscrutable"? I think there should be something spelling this out, and it has to be based on something more than "I personally have not encountered the term before" because the limits of one individual's personal vocabulary are not a good yardstick for what the likely reading population of a given article will likely be able to understand or be interested in learning. I mean, if you have a word that only applies to certain types of anime and manga, and it is only used in articles about that type of anime and manga, I figure anyone reading that article will by virtue of reading the article be expressing an interest in anime and manga, meaning they either know something about it already or they want to learn more about it, including learning new terms related to it.

Besides, every word is unknown the first time you see it, but as long as there is a proper defition provided, that is easily solved.

Also, in general, I think that if the administration has a major problem with a title, they need to cut it off at the YKTTW stage rather than waiting for several days after we launched a trope that otherwise fufills all the other standards.

edited 13th Jul '11 3:58:54 PM by Auxdarastrix

chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#1023: Jul 13th 2011 at 1:52:46 PM

And for reference, one of the definitions of "inscrutable" is "incapable of being investigated, analyzed, or scrutinized." Titles like Girl's Love isn't this, because you can investigate (look up) it. And while one of the other definitions is "mysterious", most titles that aren't Exactly What It Says on the Tin can be considered this, so that definition goes out of the window.

Got to know your semantics.

edited 13th Jul '11 1:54:35 PM by chihuahua0

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#1024: Jul 13th 2011 at 1:58:30 PM

And if we want to talk about inscrutable, Hannibal Lecture would be exemplary: Anyone who neither is interested in/watched Silence of the Lambs (which includes a lot of people who are not interested in works along similar lines), nor has heard of Hannibal Lecter will not know what the "lecture" is supposed to be about.

edited 13th Jul '11 2:01:26 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Auxdarastrix Since: May, 2010
#1025: Jul 13th 2011 at 1:59:07 PM

You Keep Using That Word

 /ɪnˈskrutəbəl/ Show Spelled [in-skroo-tuh-buhl] Show IPA

–adjective 1. incapable of being investigated, analyzed, or scrutinized; impenetrable. 2. not easily understood; mysterious; unfathomable: an inscrutable smile. 3. incapable of being seen through physically; physically impenetrable: the inscrutable depths of the ocean.

Any trope can be easily investigated, analyzeed, scrutinized, understood and fathomed by the simple step of reading the article. If it can't, the problem is most likely in the article description.


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