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Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#976: Jul 11th 2011 at 11:44:09 PM

Wait. You're saying that Mary Sue has a definition?

Fact is that it really doesn't. It isn't a trope anymore, so much as a collection of quasi-related baggage used to whine about characters you don't like.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#978: Jul 12th 2011 at 12:53:48 AM

It may be not be the most clear trope in history, but it's still just as much of a trope as Comically Missing the Point is. Likewise, it's partially an Index as well.

Sues will always appear. They're common, but they're also subjective. Likewise, whether or not it's a trope isn't what this topic's about. The only reason it was brought up was about if the name is clear or not.

Quest 64 thread
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#979: Jul 12th 2011 at 4:26:20 AM

Fair enough. I still say that it doesn't really have a clear definition, though.

It's kind of like obscenity: the definition is "I know it when I see it."

Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#980: Jul 12th 2011 at 9:35:47 AM

[up] To be fair, it even says that it can't be clearly defined.

On-topic: I'm mostly in the same boat of "if you can't find a clear English word for it, leave it" here. And with that tidbit, I'm going back to lurking.

Quest 64 thread
INUH Since: Jul, 2009
#981: Jul 12th 2011 at 10:16:57 AM

The definition I use for Mary Sue is "a character who the author treats as more important than the plot." That said, just being able to recognize one is enough.

Anyway, we probably should rerail this.

edited 12th Jul '11 10:19:09 AM by INUH

Infinite Tree: an experimental story
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#982: Jul 12th 2011 at 10:36:46 AM

[up] You get a [awesome] just for the use of the word "rerail." Although I also agree with everything else.

So, again, according to our renaming guidelines, any questionable tropes should individually be brought to TRS. Any problems with that?

Yes, I sound like a broken record, but no one seems to be listening.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#983: Jul 12th 2011 at 11:03:43 AM

[up] Sounds like a plan to me.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#984: Jul 12th 2011 at 11:13:28 AM

That also sounds good to me. Also according to the guidelines, we should be allowed to challenges the renaming of Girls' Love to Yuri Genre. That means no zapping "rename Yuri Genre" TRS threads on sight.

edited 12th Jul '11 11:17:43 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#985: Jul 12th 2011 at 12:26:27 PM

[up] It's being zapped because Fast Eddie has specified multiple times that it's never going to be changed. Whatever the reasons are at this point, it's just best to drop it, atleast for quite some time. Hell, you might as well never bring it up again. Some things need to be let go, after all.

edited 12th Jul '11 12:26:49 PM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#986: Jul 12th 2011 at 12:27:05 PM

Girls' Love

Oh, wow, it autocorrects.

edited 12th Jul '11 12:27:39 PM by EnglishIvy

CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#987: Jul 12th 2011 at 1:47:21 PM

[up] Custom titles at work.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#988: Jul 12th 2011 at 3:26:12 PM

[up][up][up] And this inexplicably unilateral action on his part sets a dangerously bad precedent that should not be allowed to go unanswered. He is violating his own trope-renaming rules without good justification; how are we supposed to respect those same rules?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#989: Jul 12th 2011 at 3:29:46 PM

Not in the least unilateral. Just really, really final.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#990: Jul 12th 2011 at 3:34:23 PM

@Eddie: It was one (or two, at the most) against around 10 or so, with the latter having managed to give more than enough reasons to not rename the article - or at least maintain "Girls Love" as part of it - as well as debunk most if not all of your major arguments... and then you, without any prior warning or discussion, say "Simple change made". No reasons cited at all, and not even allowing discussion on the topic. I fail to see how that is not unilateral.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#991: Jul 12th 2011 at 3:37:10 PM

This is done, dude. It's over. I'm not going to redo the thing every fifteen minutes.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#992: Jul 12th 2011 at 3:56:34 PM

I suspect people would bring it up less, Eddie, if you could articulate a clearer reasoning behind your decisions. (I also suspect I know why you aren't doing so, which is unfortunate, because it puts you in a bit of a bad position.)

But this is getting off topic. Starting TRS topics on each trope seems to be the way to go about this. Maybe we should move this thread to Special Efforts and start coming up with a list of tropes we need to look at for this?

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#993: Jul 12th 2011 at 4:22:27 PM

Nah. I gave fully explained reasons back when the action was taken.

An effort does seem to be indicated.

edited 12th Jul '11 4:23:10 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#994: Jul 12th 2011 at 4:26:13 PM

This is not "clear reasoning."

Now, I honestly agree with the change. The simplest solution was to say "all right, Girl's Love is just lesbian romance in Japan. Let's rename it to make that more clear and call it a day." But you didn't explain any of that, pissed off a lot of people, and suddenly we had a lot of examples that were wrong.

EDIT: Also, a special efforts thread to identify names that need repair is a bad idea. It's just going to devolve into more back and forth. And if a good reason is found, then its going to be put on TRS, and all the previously stated reasons will be brought up again.

Just bring them to TRS individually. There are not so many of these tropes that its some huge, daunting process.

edited 12th Jul '11 4:43:32 PM by Discar

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#995: Jul 12th 2011 at 4:46:30 PM

I was operating on the assumption that we were going to consider English titles as well as foreign ones for this effort. In which case the list becomes a lot longer, and more "daunting", as you put it.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#996: Jul 12th 2011 at 4:54:59 PM

Yes. All of them. That's the same as what TRS is for now. You see something you don't like, you start a thread for it. If you're right, it gets fixed (eventually). If you're wrong, then there's no problem. Easy.

We've already got 1863 outstanding threads. An extra 50 or so isn't going to hurt.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#997: Jul 12th 2011 at 4:59:38 PM

Now, I honestly agree with the change. The simplest solution was to say "all right, Girl's Love is just lesbian romance in Japan. Let's rename it to make that more clear and call it a day." But you didn't explain any of that, pissed off a lot of people, and suddenly we had a lot of examples that were wrong.
How using the fanspeak term instead of the official publishing term make it more clear to non-fans? At least you could have a hint about what the genre is about from the official name, since it was in English (or Engrish, if you want to get pedantic).

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#998: Jul 12th 2011 at 5:02:31 PM

[up][up] In that case, I'd like to know how exactly do you plan for us to keep track of the overall efforts to remove confusing names. TRS isn't exactly the most organized of the subfora; stuff has slipped through the cracks there in the past.

[up] I'd advise not bringing that up again. I think everyone's temper is probably too heated for that to get a satisfactory resolution at the moment.

edited 12th Jul '11 5:03:50 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#999: Jul 12th 2011 at 5:11:51 PM

What do you mean, keep track of it? Removing confusing names is part of the point of TRS. Yes, things slip through the cracks. But I really don't think starting a special efforts thread listing all the potentially confusing names is going to help at all.

People launch new tropes—with or without YKTTW—every day with confusing names. And when someone notices, they get dragged into TRS and discussed.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#1000: Jul 12th 2011 at 6:30:36 PM

As in keep track of the progress we're making towards the goal of cleaning up pre-existing (note the emphasis) tropes with obscure and confusing names. Not sure what new tropes out of YKTTW have to do with this - that's a separate issue.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

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