Admittedly after more than 800 pages a man just has to Thread Hop.
A recap would be best.
The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.I make no pretention to discovering a new position; the fact that it was 34 pages long was a strong tipoff that this is not a "new position". Simply wished to add my vote to the discussion—and since there is no vote associated with this thread, one has to do that by typing out what one thinks.
In all frankness I'm surprised that there is so much discussion about this topic. This website is used by persons who speak English. Almost every page is in English. Why is this even a subject for debate? The website would be better off if it is written to have the broadest possible appeal to the greatest number of users.
(And yup, am definitely going to thread hop if the thread is 35 pages long.)
edited 10th Jul '11 1:36:16 PM by Vidor
From what I remember, reasons include:
1) Imprecision, e.g. tsundere
2) Trope usage is insular, e.g. henohenomoheji
3) Actual number is low
4) Not a trope/a proper name, e.g. seinen.
5) SEO reasons
6) Heavy usage, e.g. tsundere again.
I'm sure I missed a couple more. Some more convincing than the others.
edited 10th Jul '11 1:51:35 PM by Catalogue
The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.Isn't there also 'this thing is a black hole for links', as in the case of Tsundere? One of the Overdosed Tropes, one of the Tropes Of Legend, and 40,000+ inbound links.
Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.The page would be best if it were accurate, informative and educational. The problem is when a perfectly legitimate word used to describe something unique to Japan is changed for an English term that does not accurately or precisely describe the thing under discussion. Another problem is when people mistake their personal vocabularies for the entirety of the English language and don't even bother to check if a Japanese loanword is in English dictionaries before trying to change it on the grounds that it is foreign.
Still, I have to ask you: What makes you want to target Japanese words specifically, and not Trope Names from Other Languages?
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Yeah the inbound links are under SEO reasons. I added heavy usage.
There's also "sake for the sake of change/benefits don't outweigh the cost" issue.
I wouldn't attribute that to malice. Anime fandom is pretty visible in the community.
edited 10th Jul '11 1:54:26 PM by Catalogue
The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.Even if there were a policy against no future names from Japanese, surely Tsundre is so well established that it should be grandfathered in. Besides, the word in its transliterated form gets some 17,000,000 hits on Google, and is included on everything from Wikipedia to the Urban Dictionary. It would be insular for us to NOT use it.
edited 10th Jul '11 1:55:21 PM by Auxdarastrix
"Still, I have to ask you: What makes you want to target Japanese words specifically, and not Trope Names From Other Languages?"
In general, I'd say that any trope name in a foreign language that is obscure and mysterious to most English-language speakers needs to be changed. But specifically, this does not appear to be a problem with any other languages on this website. I just looked at that Trope Names From Other Languages list that you posted, and most of them seem to be terms in pretty common English usage or tropes with a specific application to a language or culture—maybe one could replace Manhwa with Korean Comics, but still, it's a title with a specific application referring to Korean culture. The bigger problem is with titles that hide general meanings behind obscure Japanese words. The Nakama thread that led me here and is going on right now is a perfect example. The idea of a group of friends that bond like a family is not specifically Japanese but universal. Why does it have a deliberately obscure name that most users of TV Tropes will not understand?
So, sounds like what you are really saying is that trope titles need to be decided on a case by case basis as to whether or not English is the best language. I don't think anyone would argue. Its just that I would react to a blanket "No Japanese" rule the same way I would react to a blanket "No Latin" rule or "No French" rule.
The Nakama thread was created because it was incessantly sidetracking this conversation and because pretty much everyone, regardless of side in the argument, on here hated it. Check its first page and you'll find a link to here.
Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.That's a start. At first, we need to know whether we agree (we should) that there will be exceptions and (as long as the terms are used correctly and not gratuitously) problems will only arise when a foreign/fandom-specific term is applied to a trope of wider usage. "Why this term? It's universal, it should use a neutral name, which, in the case of an English wiki, will be in English." This is a reasonable objection.
Well, from there, I can hypothesise that: probably it just so happens that a foreign set of culture discovered the concept, then termed and codified it better than the rest, due to one cultural quirk or other! A good example of this would be deja vu and l'esprit de l'escalier from French, or perhaps schadenfreude from German.
edited 10th Jul '11 2:09:09 PM by Catalogue
The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
Sometimes there isn't a neutral name.
Tsundere exist in all fiction, in all cultures, but no one bothered to give it a name until the early 21st century, and the people who did happened to be Japanese. Its now a very stock character in anime, and if you look back, you can see examples all over the place. But they never had a name! We have a name for it now, sure its "japanese", but so fucking what? Hell, if you were Japanese, and had never heard the term before, you'd probably be kinda confused, since its a neologism that isn't immediately apparent.
edited 10th Jul '11 2:16:46 PM by SakurazakiSetsuna
Well yeah I elaborated on that too.
Bonus: Boom
. The article is vaguely sceptical, but I guess this happens. Also this
and this
.
In fact, they don't have to be true to illustrate the point. Sometimes a concept is difficult to translate and some guy somewhere came up with it and it stuck.
p.s. By the way, "saudade" seems like a beautiful word.
edited 10th Jul '11 2:18:27 PM by Catalogue
The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.Here's another illustration of the problem. That "Trope Names From Other Languages" page specifies that it is for language other than Japanese. When you click the associated "Japanese" link, you go to the page for...
Looking at that list, I see that several trope titles actually are under corresponding English names, which is good. Here are some which aren't and could stand to be changed:
Kawaiiko—Cute Little Girl Megane—Guys With Glasses Meganekko—Glasses Girl (this is an alternate title) Yandere—Psychotic Lover (alternate title) Yangire—Cute Psycho (alternate) Nakama—has its own thread going (and the answer there is Band of Brothers, BTW) Ryona—hmm, quite a few non-anime examples there, Violent Misogyny maybe ZettaiRyouiki—Knee High Socks (alternate)
Except TRS is about to cut Knee High Socks from qualifying for Zettai Ryouiki.
Which just goes to show that you need to actually... I don't know, understand each of those tropes and their history before renaming things?
For example, Yandere has been up for rename several times, yet none of the current redirects fully capture the trope. They are there as redirects not because they perfectly describe the trope, but because we couldn't find a good English name, so we kept the Japanese name, and added a bunch of English redirects that don't quite fit everything about the trope in order to make it easier for English speakers to find. (That and a lot of people liked the connection to Tsundere, which is why I think Yandere won out some of the old English phrases that mean this trope such as "Play Misty" that have since fallen out of use.)
The only one I'll really give you on that list is Glasses Girl, which probably can be renamed. (And maybe Megane although I'm not familiar with that trope).
Which is why each trope should be considered in it's own thread to determine if it can be renamed or not.
edited 10th Jul '11 2:46:58 PM by Sackett
What I don't understand is how doesn't Psychotic Lover cover what Yandere means. Isn't Yandere just a character who's insane and in love?
"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum."Except TRS is about to cut Knee High Socks from qualifying for Zettai Ryouiki."
Well, that's unfortunate. Although the specific wording doesn't really matter. I see on that alternate title list
Knee High Socks, Golden Thigh Ratio, Knee Socks, Short Skirt And Knee Socks, Mini Skirt With Thigh High Socks
all of which are better titles than "Zettai Rouiki", because they are all descriptive, in English, of a concept which is NOT specific to Japan or to anime but is a general idea. As for me not understanding things, here is the intro to that page:
- "Absolute Territory" (zettai ryouiki in Japanese) describes the area of uncovered thigh between the skirt and the stockings that's apparently a total magnet for Male Gaze. Why? Who knows.
That is not specific to Japan, but is a universal concept. I count 22 examples in the Film subsection and most of them are not specific to Japan. 20 examples in Live Action TV, most of which are not specific to Japan.
Here's the test: 1) Is this term in general English use? 2) Does this term apply solely or predominantly to that language/culture, or is it a general concept? If the answers to these questions are "No" and "general concept", then the trope needs to be renamed.
edited 10th Jul '11 2:47:16 PM by Vidor
No, the test is "Is the trope being used correctly?" It is. Therefore, no reason for a rename.
They came up with the name first. Why? Who the hell knows. But that means they named it, and that's all there is to it.
If you feel differently about any specific trope—including Zettai Ryouiki—start a TRS thread for it. You'll need to prove misuse, though.
edited 10th Jul '11 2:49:11 PM by Discar
Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.The answer to Nakama isn't necessarily Band of Brothers, there's no consensus yet. Please don't be misleading. =/
Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls."No, the test is "Is the trope being used correctly?" It is. Therefore, no reason for a rename.
They came up with the name first. Why? Who the hell knows. But that means they named it, and that's all there is to it."
No, this is not right. The problem is the name, how descriptive or not descriptive it is, and how comprehensible it is to the average English-speaking person who is reading an English-language website dedicated not specifically to anime and Japanese culture, but to art and entertainment in general. This website is not devoted to anime.
If "they"—they being anime fans, I guess—came up with a name first, congratulations to them. But this website is not exclusively about anime and it is not written in Japanese. It is written in English for English-speaking people, therefore the name of a trope should be the one most comprehensible to English-speakers.
(Regarding Nakama, I had no intention to be misleading. Was simply saying that the obvious answer seems to be to expand Band of Brothers to include non-military instances.)
edited 10th Jul '11 2:56:19 PM by Vidor
The 'obvious' answer would confuse EVERYONE. Military connotations in the name AND it exists as a trope already. Not a good idea.
Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.![]()
Same here. I'm just using the renaming guidelines because they're simpler, and the explicit rule of the site.
Apparently no one cares.
He already apologized for that one, and is taking it to the other thread.
edited 10th Jul '11 3:03:15 PM by Discar
Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.

Geez, go light on the guy, he just discovered the thread.
"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.