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RocketDude Since: May, 2009
#776: Jul 9th 2011 at 9:31:14 PM

Eddie, my point was that there are Fanspeak terms and then there are terms that the industries are wont to use. We need to determine what is what in terms of Fan or Creator before we go off renaming stuff. At least, if we want to stick "Genre" or "Demographic" onto the end of a name, we should determine which is a Genre and which is a Demographic.

After all, that is one of the points of contention in this thread.

edited 9th Jul '11 9:44:34 PM by RocketDude

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#777: Jul 9th 2011 at 9:36:49 PM

Change to Everything You Wanted To Know About Changing Names reprinted here for convenience (change bolded):

  • If the name is a term already in use in the world, it is working. 'In the world', by the way, also means 'in a specific fandom.' If more than one term is used for it, we have redirects to use or we may need an additional article. A lot of times, two terms mean two subtly different tropes. The article should have the title with the meaning that reaches (is used by) the widest number of people. The redirects are there for the specific fandoms.

So you just added two lines which make the rest of the paragraph confusing, or perhaps even contradictory.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
RocketDude Since: May, 2009
#778: Jul 9th 2011 at 9:40:02 PM

^That sounds fair. The only challenge there is figuring out what appeals to the widest demographic, but that may not be too hard.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#779: Jul 9th 2011 at 9:40:35 PM

Does this mean we can change Mickey Mousing?

Fight smart, not fair.
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#780: Jul 9th 2011 at 9:42:14 PM

[up][up] That's a huge challenge, and it implies that if those demographics change, we can change the name. You see the problem.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
RocketDude Since: May, 2009
#781: Jul 9th 2011 at 9:50:30 PM

^Yeah, I guess I'd be all over that if we had a reliable way of knowing what term is popular on the Web, but I doubt we do.

Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#782: Jul 9th 2011 at 9:51:53 PM

There are always google searches. We've used google searches to compare usage of potential trope titles many times in the past, actually.

edited 9th Jul '11 9:52:17 PM by Meeble

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#783: Jul 9th 2011 at 9:55:33 PM

So long as rule number one remains "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," I don't have any particular problem with the new guideline. I just think this is going to be used to say "most people aren't anime fans, so we need to get rid of all those trope names."

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#784: Jul 9th 2011 at 9:56:42 PM

By that very change's wording, Yuri Genre and Shōnen Genre are wrong, though for different reasons. The former is Japanese fandom-specific and often/usually used strictly in a "lesbian sexual relationship" sense rather than the broader "lesbian romantic relationship", while the second is not even a genre at all, but a demographic.

edited 9th Jul '11 9:56:53 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#785: Jul 9th 2011 at 10:07:21 PM

@Change: Nobody uses the phrase Shonen Genre.

Therefore, you're digging yourself deeper into a hole. See why I think you lost credibility in this discussion? Every action you done had caused people to shake their heads.

The redirects are there for the specific fandoms.

Yeah, if you count publishers as a fandom.

edited 9th Jul '11 10:09:14 PM by chihuahua0

Wulf Gotta trope, dood! from Louisiana Since: Jan, 2001
Gotta trope, dood!
#786: Jul 9th 2011 at 10:23:58 PM

@ discussion over the last page or so- It makes absolutely no sense to add "genre" to any genre. If I don't know what a Soap Opera is, adding the word "genre" isn't going to make it more clear. If an example is in the Anime/Manga section of a page and it uses the word Shonen in its description, what does adding the word "genre" to it do to make it more clear? Context clues will tell you that "shonen" is a type of anime or manga. "shonen genre" tells you that it's... a type of anime or manga. If it's on a works page, all the Japanese names and the big eyes and hair tip you off that hey, Shonen must be a kind of anime.

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?
chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#787: Jul 9th 2011 at 10:38:56 PM

[up] To restate what he said, since it is mostly being used in context, it would be redundant and wrong tacking on the word "genre" onto the title.

BrightBlueInk It's all a conspiracy. from Colorado, USA Since: Jan, 2001
It's all a conspiracy.
#788: Jul 9th 2011 at 11:39:53 PM

Especially when the "genre" being mentioned isn't actually a genre to begin with. (Although it's been mistakenly called that by Western fandom for a while, sigh.)

Current project: Cleaning up the Chrono Crusade examples one at a time. God help me.
MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#789: Jul 9th 2011 at 11:45:21 PM

To reiterate a point that can't be repeated enough: Shōnen Genre and Shōjo Genre are incorrect because they are not genres, they are demographics. If we're going to stick English words on the end to make them more palatable, then it should be Shōnen Demographic and Shojo Demographic.

SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#790: Jul 10th 2011 at 12:07:52 AM

Also it should be Shoujo, not Shojo.

/nitpick

Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#791: Jul 10th 2011 at 12:16:04 AM

We should tend to go with the more popular romanisation.

For me the turning point was when there's a decision to rename "seinen". This demonstrates a serious degree of misunderstanding. Will we rename chiaroscuro to Light Dark? High Contrast Between Light And Dark Elements? What makes Italian acceptable and not Japanese? It's closer but they're just as alien ("Arrivederci! Oh, spaghetti mamma mia prosciutto pasta!") And before one says "oh maybe we should change it," I suppose all people who would care about chiaroscuro, will call it chiaroscuro because that's how people use it.

I support the Clear English Title policy, but I'm willing to consider that in some cases this would be unfeasible: there are a handful of cases where exceptions can be made.

Hence I questioned: will there be exceptions? But there were no answers. This I think is an important question to be raised, since if the admin says no, all this would be in vain and if the admin says yes, we need to provide a criterion on what constitutes an exception.

edited 10th Jul '11 12:20:00 AM by Catalogue

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#792: Jul 10th 2011 at 12:21:36 AM

The former is Japanese fandom-specific and often/usually used strictly in a "lesbian sexual relationship" sense rather than the broader "lesbian romantic relationship"

Yuri is "lesbian sexual relationship". It's the more adult-oriented version of shoujou-ai, although they are often used interchangeably.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#793: Jul 10th 2011 at 12:24:49 AM

[up][up]

We should tend to go with the more popular romanisation.

No, we should go with the correct one. It has a long vowel sound, thus needs either "ou" or a macron, and since macrons are the devil...

SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#794: Jul 10th 2011 at 12:26:09 AM

[up][up]

Argh! No! Shoujo-ai is an entirely western fandom created term, and should not be further entrenched. Yuri covers the entire spectrum from almost completely chaste to out and out porn.

CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#795: Jul 10th 2011 at 12:31:01 AM

We are Western here.

I understand that 'yuri' is the only term used in Japan. But we are not Japan, and we do differentiate between adult-oriented works and safer-for-work works.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#796: Jul 10th 2011 at 12:31:28 AM

Let's postpone the romanisation issue. If we're not allowed to use foreign titles at all, it's moot.

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#797: Jul 10th 2011 at 12:32:44 AM

[up][up]

We shouldn't use terms that are only going to cause confusion, and there is no reason to make that distinction on that page.

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#798: Jul 10th 2011 at 12:32:57 AM

[up][up][up] We had it at "Girls Love" before it was changed to Yuri Genre It was English.

(And there is Ecchi and Hentai for those that might not be safe for work.)

edited 10th Jul '11 12:36:00 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#799: Jul 10th 2011 at 12:37:16 AM

We shouldn't use terms that are only going to cause confusion, and there is no reason to make that distinction on that page.

As you yourself noted, the West has a different interpretation of 'yuri' than the Japanese do. As has been discussed in this thread, we are a Western site. If the Western interpretation of a word differs from the Japanese interpretation, we go with the Western term.

We had it at "Girls Love" before it was changed to Yuri Genre It was English.

Eddie, can you please explain your reasoning?

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#800: Jul 10th 2011 at 12:40:40 AM

Come to think of it, I don't really care enough to get in an argument over this, so don't expect a response from me.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!

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