Eheheh...
A fairly large portion of English language tropes have titles I never would have thought to search for, but there is nothing wrong with that. Face–Heel Turn comes to mind. Generally speaking, If I have a vague idea of a concept I'm looking for, I can still find them by going to an appropriate index, taking a look at a work page of a work I know includes the trope, asking on Lost and Found, etc. Also, most tropes I've discovered on TV Tropes are things I simply would have never recognized as being a trope at all, not even a vague concept given shape, but I find out about them because they were listed on a work page.
It never would have occurred to me to even think about a hypothetical trope for a female that alternates between aloof and lovestruck. I certainly wouldn't have come up with English terms to search for it. However, because I read work pages that include the Tsundere trope, I know recognize it as a trope and have learned something that helps me better understand a genre which I only started reading in the last few months. This is a positive result for readers that I think would be lost if all non-English terms were banned outright.
I am going to say since it was brought up again a page or so back, Eddie is going to allow us to use Ryokan Inn as a name because it does have an English word attached to it so that even someone that doesn't know the word can guess the context. It's some specific sort of inn.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
So, how would that apply to cases like Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere and Pale Haired Strange Kuudere?
I think the trick here is really context. The names need to have enough context in English to guess the general idea and then the foreign word to make it more specific. It's a bit Department of Redundancy Department, but it's clear.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. DickAfter watching all this... and watching how many people are going utter bugshit over this, despite the fact that its a pretty cut-and-dry issue, I've decided to pull up stakes and move to the Mirror to have my fun.
At the very least, they seem to value common sense over Fan Myopia and Fan Elitism over there, and watching how badly those two factors play on this wiki has sort of soured it for me.
Oh, and Shima... I think it was you who mentioned them "getting serious" and getting away from Wikia. Surprise...
I haven't really noticed many people going "utter bugshit" on this issue.
This is a philosophical debate on a subject that could have major impact to our future trope repair decisions, so it's expected that people will attempt to argue their positions. I don't think it's fair to declare that your side of the argument is the one with common sense, since others would hold preserving currently well performing titles as the more common sense position.
@Shimaspawn: So going by that logic, would something like Tsundere Love Interest be a workable title? It basically describes the trope about as well as Ryokan Inn and Xanatos Gambit does to the uninitiated.
edited 8th Jul '11 7:17:55 PM by Meeble
Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!@World Maker: Personally, I don't see the Mirror Wiki as a valid alternate. First of all, 90 percent of their wiki is directly copied from us, and second of all, it seems like they aren't putting too much effort in it (just see how many redlinks are on its front page). If there is an alternate, it has to be a wiki that will separate all ties with TV Tropes.
But still, we're discussing something that could change the wiki for better or for worst.
I just feel like renaming titles for the sake of Westernizing them isn't the way to go. If it's ain't broke, don't fix it. We don't even know if Kuudere is broke or not. No one wants to look into it.
edited 8th Jul '11 7:20:45 PM by chihuahua0
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No, no, no. Tsundere Love Interest would describe every single tsundere in a romantic relationship ever. Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere is something much more specific. But that's for the (recreated) YKTTW; discuss it there, please.
I wasn't referring to your subtrope, Marq, just asking for clarification on whether the current title of Tsundere would be considered better if it were titled Tsundere Love Interest.
Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!Oh... Well, in that case, the essence of my point still stands: Tsundere Love Interest would stipulate that the character is always a Love Interest, when both the description and the examples support the existence of completely platonic Tsunderes.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.Oh jesus, this thread.
Ok, read through it, a few random thoughts since my last post 15 pages or so ago.
Someone said that the non-english, jargon trope names would cause is to be seen as "insular", which is crazy. Assuming a term is widely used outside this wiki, whether "in general" or in a specific fandom, not using that term is what makes us look insular! We shouldn't go making up entirely new names for things until we've determined that there is no pre-existing term, once we've found out if there is, we should look into how many there are, how clear they are, etc etc. No one has ever demonstrated a clear, succinct, non-Japanese (English, French, Farsi, whatever) equivalent for "Tsundere". Now some pre-existing terms aren't going to make for good trope names, but lots of them are.
Osananajimi is being used because no one could come up with a better way of naming that specifically Japanese character type. There are of course tons and tons of Childhood Friends in Anime and Manga, but not all of them are osananajimi as we define it. Many of them fall into the more general Childhood Friends tropes. If someone can come up with a better term for it, I'd be all for it, since it is a bitch to spell.
Has any anime fan actually defended Nakama? As far as I can tell, we all want it changed because, well, its wrong!
Better names were thought up for it, actually. The only one I can recall off the top of my head is Harem Childhood Friend, though.
Also, yeah, if you're still reading this thread Fast Eddie you have my complete support for simply renaming nakama through sheer bludgeoning authority, ignoring any who wish to complain or argue about it. Unlike the names I do feel like defending such as tsundere, there's no point to it being in Japanese and a multitude of suitable English names.
I can't believe I actually defended Nakama at one point... it needs to go.
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There is actually a lot of Harem stereotypes that we really should put the focus to and split tropes (The Chinese Haremette was one I was talking about in the Chinese People repair shop)
Yep Nuke Nakama from orbit I think something like Comrades Closer Than Family would work for a name on that.
edited 9th Jul '11 12:47:25 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
That actually brings something to mind - for a long time now, I've wanted to split off a "Anime Stock Tsundere" trope from the broader Tsundere page. Tsundere itself isn't a culture-specific trope, but there does seem to be an anime/Japanese media Stock Character version, similar to how Osanawhatever is a culture-specific subtrope of the more general Childhood Friends In Love (or whatever we ultimately renamed Unlucky/Victorious Childhood Friend to). I don't know if it could be pulled off or not, so I've kept it quiet, but now seems like a good time to bring up the idea.
It's not that osabananamin is a culture specific variant, it's that it's a stock character in anime and dating sims. Normal childhood friend romance stuff appears alongside them. Also, what you're looking for is Childhood Friend Romance.
Right, it wouldn't be impossible for an osananajimi to show up in a non-Japanese work, it would just be very unlikely.
I'm aware of nakama's don't-go-near-it status, but never actually read the discussions. I wonder what kind of defenses were used to keep it.
The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
