- Starfire
- Gaara.
- more?
edited 14th Jan '12 7:03:54 AM by Zulfiqar
So, Purple Eyes Are Different? Green Eyed Redheads Are Different? Does it "otherness" just amount to "different"?
Well, let's see about this. Gaara is not much different than Naruto is. He was an Evil Counterpart if you prefer it this way. Then he pulled a Heel–Face Turn, and now he's as weird as any other character. Otherness, in the sense you're using, can be applied to many other non GERH characters, in fact, quite too many to say that it makes a pattern. Itachi is weird, Orochimaru is weird, Danzo is weird, Deidara, Kisame, Tobi, Nagato... they're all "weird" and don't "fit", and there are more. EDIT: Sasori is a Human Puppet guy who is a redhead, but he doesn't have green eyes. With your definition he should have them.
Mary Jane's traits: she's hot, she married Spiderman. Otherwise not more different than any other human. And she definitely doesn't somehow stand more in a cast full of Superhumans because of her looks. She does because of the relationship with the hero. In the end, Heroes Want Redheads.
So "different" in the end is as subjective as "otherness" is, if that's the use you're applying. If it's not, please explain further.
P.D.: That said, all the tropes about "Our X are different" should be revised too, but one thing at a time.
edited 14th Jan '12 7:11:15 AM by DrMcNinja
There are no heroes left in Man.Gaara is not Other because of race. He is Other because of a mystical rite done on him. While all characters stand out in fiction, those that are Other are either excluded of flocked to by those who are not. Often times both simultaneously. Other is dangerous and it's something recognized more by how other characters react to them in media than just how the audience reacts.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Gaara got to be "other" until Naruto punched the stupidness out of him, after that he's as weird as any other characters are, so.. duh. He got to be Kazekage and has no problems now. Otherness only lasted one story arc, out of many others where he's more or less normal.
Mary Jane is more Fiery Redhead or Heroes Want Redheads than otherness too, and her relationship is directly tied with the hero. We don't get to see her interacting with many other characters that note her as something else than "hot". Never got excluded.
I'll talk a bit more about other characters who aren't as strange as you claim them to be, or shunned by other characters. I'll take examples that I know about, so if there are examples that support the "otherness" meaning "excluded". tell me about them.
- Kurama, from Yu Yu Hakusho. His importance lies in being more intelligent and effeminate than his partners, but they have always considered him a valuable ally and friend.
- Jessica Rabbit. Well, she's hot, hot, hot and nothing else. Not bad, just drawn that way. No one hates her.
- Lily Evans: she was more or less liked among her peers, only excluded by her sister. Not more special than anyone else.
- Axel in Kingdom Hearts: The only guy in the Organization who has friends, Roxas and Xion. He was Lea, friend of Isa. Before dying he got to be understood by Sora. Only rejected when he was a bad guy.
- Oerba Dia Vanille in FFXIII: She was friends the cast, and she was no more hated than any other L'Cie.
So otherness as "rejected" doesn't work either, at least AFAIK. Any more meanings you want to apply?
edited 14th Jan '12 7:50:12 AM by DrMcNinja
There are no heroes left in Man.@Dr: I think shimaspawn didn't mean that GERH "Others" are always hated (which is, incidentally, already covered by Red-Headed Stepchild), but that they are excluded or at least stand out in comparison to the rest of the group. So, I think Gaara could fit this description. As could Frankie Foster (possibly). As could arguably be Lily Evans (since we could argue that her unique place in the story and in Harry's life was all planned at the beginning).
MJ doesn't. She never was excluded, or hated, or perceived as "Other". She didn't have a different origin, she wasn't a different species, she never was treated as mysterious or such. She never was a recluse, either — to the contrary, she was a social and popular girl. As Dr Mc Ninja stated above, MJ is more Heroes Want Redheads.
Starfire? Sure, she's an alien princess. But in a cast of Badass Normal, a shapeshifter, a mysterious magic-user, and a cyborg. Ironically, personality-wise, Starfire wasn't "the Other" among their small group — that would be Raven, the reclusive and mysterious magic girl.
Jean Grey? Of course, she became very important and powerful... much later in the story, iirc, a decade later or more. When she was created, she wasn't in any way different from the other members of their Five-Man Band. They were mutants, she was a mutant. They were teens, she was a teen. Nothing out of ordinary. The only way she was different from the rest of the main characters, is that she was female, and a potential love interest that all of them constantly fought for. That's Heroes Want Redheads, again.
Hawkgirl? "The Other"? Don't make me laugh. She's an alien? Yep. In a cast including at least two notable aliens, an Amazon golem, a space policeman with wish powers, and a couple of Badass Normals. Amongst the aliens, she's probably the least special, the least interesting, the least standing out. Superman stands out because he's technically more powerful than the rest of the cast combined, Martian Manhunter is a mysterious recluse and thus "the Other" by personality. Hawkgirl? Er... can fly and has a bitching mace. Even amongst the cast as a whole, she can't be considered "the Other" — that would be the reclusive mysterious loner Batman who can defy all common logic and laws by being able to go toe-to-toe with the most superpowered individuals by relying only on his wit and courage.
It's hard to determine if GER Hs who are the sole (or one of two) main character, could be considered "the Other". But I still could argue that there isn't any proof of, e.g., Gwen Tennyson being "the Other", in storytelling terms.
So... more examples, please?
edited 14th Jan '12 2:42:14 PM by Zulfiqar
Notice that I never said "hated". I said "excluded" or "rejected". That's what shimaspawn said, I'm trying to go with that.
And as I said, Gaara could be that... for just one arc. After that he wasn't rejected anymore. He got to be the Kazekage and the Hidden Village of the Leaf sent their jinchuriki to save him, so the rejected part can be taken loosely.
edited 14th Jan '12 2:23:19 PM by DrMcNinja
There are no heroes left in Man.
Actually, you did, in the FF 13 example
But anyways. About Gaara: well, we should judge character by what they were at the time shortly after their appearance (except stories that were planned ahead as a whole). Since they're given green eyes and red hair when they are created, we should look at what was their role and personality at the time, not years later.
In short and without technical details in FFXIII the L'Cie are hated because they were marked by the god of another country and have superpowers. The whole group got rejected from society because of that, not Vanille alone. And before her being a L'Cie was discovered she was friendly and became friends with Serah. I used hated but because of how the story develops. People fear and hate L'Cie, but she wasn't the only L'cie in the game.
About Gaara, well, he would fit then. But how many other examples fit? Kurama doesn't, Jessica Rabbit doesn't, Vanille doesn't, Axel (in KH Chain of Memories) was just another baddie (an Ensemble Dark Horse baddie I should say) and wouldn't fit...
Otherness as rejected doesn't seem to work.
There are no heroes left in Man.Just would like to mention that Kurama's also the oldest in the group (he mentions that Hiei is too young to remember many of the horrible things Mukuro apparently did offscreen), and has the unique circumstance of being a youkai that became fused with a human. Other characters in the series have been humans that were changed into youkai (Toguro brothers), or been mostly human but had dormant youkai heritage awakened(Yuusuke), but Kurama's the only character seen or mentioned in the entire series that started out as a youkai and then became human.
The fact that he's really, really old/has millennia of life experience actually becomes important to the plot at one point because it makes his mind so multi-layered that he can effectively No-Sell a mindreader without the mindreader in question realising it.
He also stands out from his teammates as being a master of Deliberate Injury Batman Gambits who always waits for his enemy to make the first move and never fights hand-to-hand if he can help it, while the other three are all a lot more direct in their fighting styles. I feel that this is, while related to how intelligent he is, distinct from it, and possibly more important in this context, since Hiei, Yuusuke, and Kuwabara all have their really clever moments, too.
As for his girlish looks, though, that's more an example of Foxes Are Feminine, which is a Southeast-Asian folklore thing, even if we don't have a trope page for it. It would be weirder if he didn't look very feminine.
edited 14th Jan '12 4:43:10 PM by Pig_catapult
Zulfiqar and Dr. McNinja have produced no argument other than "Trait as an indication of specialness/otherness, despite being a valid reason for multiple tropes we have on the wiki, is something we are going to arbitrarily rail against" and therefore, I consider them argumentative trolls. They just have a vendetta against these tropes, there's nothing we can say to wake them up.
SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)That's completely unfair.
The two of them have proved quite well that "special" or "important" is just a crutch we use for "characteristic... precisely which characteristic? I couldn't say." It applies to all non-background characters so is near-meaningless.
Otherization is a concept, but they've proved equally well that Purple Eyes convey it only in distinguishing the character from all others - and it is therefore a tool, though not a subtrope, of Dinstinctive Appearances. And they've also proven that we have little evidence that Purple Eyed characters are ostracized or separated in that way. Some are. Lots aren't. Those with different eyes are. Those with different eyes aren't.
And don't assume that whoever disagrees with you is irrational. We're not talking politics or religion here - no of us have any stake in the matter or any preference other than to document tropes correctly.
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Cheater, cheater, that's called personal attack!
"Despite being a valid reason for multiple tropes". Bring those tropes, and we'll see if they are only "specialness" or something else. In the first case it would mean they need some help, as we've been telling the whole time that "special" is something without any standard, but you ignore us when we say that. In the second then they are tropes for something else, and therefore they wouldn't help your position.
@Pig Catapult: Read where I talk about rejection. Otherness as "excluded", as shimaspawn said. You're mixing concepts.
edited 15th Jan '12 2:24:45 AM by DrMcNinja
There are no heroes left in Man.Please, you guys have been snide with dissenters from the very beginning. And I disagree that anything pertaining to the word special has been 'proven'. If you really believe you've disproven it, explain it to me again.
edited 15th Jan '12 3:10:27 AM by NoirGrimoir
SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)That's not how Burden Of Proof works. You claim that "specialness" is a characteristic. You have to prove it. But alright, I'll do the work of proving the contrary.
Special is something subjective. It has no standards at all. Not a single one. I could argue for any non backgroud character that he is "special", and you can't prove the contrary, because it's subjective. It's something where any character, no matter the looks, can fit one way or another.
See the problem now, or do I need to explain it again? Oh, and before I forget, where are those tropes you mentioned? I miss them in your post.
BTW, that was still a personal attack, don't try to hide it now. "You did it before" is another personal attack and it wouldn't justify in any way you doing the same.
edited 15th Jan '12 3:48:44 AM by DrMcNinja
There are no heroes left in Man.<also doing the mod hat thing>
Noir Grimoir, the accusation of arbitrariness was unwarranted, and tells me that you're still assuming bad faith here. Dr Mc Ninja has explained why he thinks "special" is not a good standard, and whether or not you agree, it's plainly not arbitrary.
With that said, Dr Mc Ninja, I stress that I am really not impressed with your tone here. Believing yourself to be right does not automatically give you the high ground or the right to goad other tropers and act superior. Please don't make me have to say this to you again.
<mod hat off>
And with regards to the topic of specialness, subjective is not meaningless and I think it's definitely a concept we can note here. There are specific ways in which a character can be special, such as having an uncommon appearance in-universe, and it is absolutely within the scope of the wiki to note this. Some tropes may indicate that a character is special in one of several kinds of ways, which means that no specific, narrow definition of special will suffice in that context.
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The StaffIf it's because of the "cheater" thing, I was joking. If it's because of the "I miss them", well, I really do miss them. She said there were tropes that helped her position, I want to know them. It's reasonable that I ask her to prove her point. And if it's because I ask her if she sees the problem it's because I think that maybe I haven't explained well enough. Explanations have never been my forte.
About "uncommon appearance", how is that different from Distinctive Appearances, if you could explain? Distinctive Appearances In-Universe is still Distinctive Appearances, not a different trope.
There are no heroes left in Man.Mostly because Distinctive Appearances is not the trope you think it is. It's a trope that says that each main characters is designed to look as different from the other characters as possible. It is not a trope for one character being designed to stand out from the rest.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. DickCopied from the other TRS:
GERH means standing out: That would be part of a broader trope, Ways To Stand Out, along with Purple Eyes, being higher than usual and many more. Having a trope to deal with it would be the same than having Arabian Called Muhammed or Russian Called Boris for Stock Foreign Name. Without a meaning of its own we have again just a list of characters, which, again, is something we are supposed to prevent.
I didn't add the part talking about Distinctive Appearances because you say it's different, but the point is still the same.
Now, quoted from Routerie: "So GERH is not Distinctive Appearances. It is Distinguishing Characteristic, a trope we have not written but one that exists. In terms of merely distinguishing a single character, GERH is completely equivalent to purple eyes."
There are no heroes left in Man.I honestly disagree that Purple is the same as GERH.
While GERH is a rare but attainable special, Purple (while possible in Real Life) is seen as being impossible in Real Life. A GERH is special, but not so special as to break the rules of the world. A character with Purple Eyes is so special that it doesn't matter if it's possible or not, she has them because she's just that much better than everyone else.
It's the difference between simply "Rare" and "Impossible". That's a pretty hefty distinction.
edited 15th Jan '12 9:24:49 AM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. DickReading the examples in the page of Purple Eyes (those that I know of at least) I think I'm getting the whole otherness thing. It's goddamned difficult to understand, but I think I'm starting to get the point.
Purple Eyes Of Disparity? Purple Eyes Of Abnormality? Is it something like that?
There are no heroes left in Man.Purple Eyes Of Weirdness? Hehe.
Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.Just read a mary sue story where the character has purple eyes and you'll probably understand completely why it's a trope and exactly what the trope is and probably what we mean by 'special' as well.
This discussion of GERH needs to be confined to ONE Trope page, with explanations on different pages it makes it harder.
SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Crown Description:
Eyes Of Gold was voted to be renamed 12 to 0.

A character that is another race from the rest of the cast. A woman in a cast that is primarily male. Someone of a different religion from the rest of the cast. Any one who is set apart from others by some detail.
Gwen: But like it or not, the fact that they gave MJ an appearance that made her seem other and special is part of why she lived and Gwen died. She was always other in the comics and the concept of other is exciting. More so than simple innocence.
edited 14th Jan '12 6:59:26 AM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick