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kegisak Element of Class Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Element of Class
#4501: Dec 28th 2011 at 11:10:26 PM

So I was just reading through chapter 15 to do my editing pass, and I had written 'Bigger problems' once as 'Nigger problems'. MAN I'm glad I caught that one before I sent it out to anybody...

Hah ha! Racist page topper!

that aside, today has been a very productive day! I finished writing and editing... well, the entire thing, until the reviews come back. I feel good about them, though. So without further ado, Chapter 15: In Which a Battle is Fought, and Epilogue: In Which the Sun Sets.

edited 29th Dec '11 1:09:52 AM by kegisak

Birthright: an original web novel about Dragons, the Burdens of Leadership, and Mangoes.
Sessalisk from Wheeeeeeeee Since: Sep, 2011
#4502: Dec 29th 2011 at 7:04:08 AM

So, I've done a few of the things suggested to me for the image in chapter 7 (still working on the long version of that one picture with Twilight in it). Now I'm worried I might have too many images.

Would anyone mind taking a look at what I've done so far and seeing if anything should be removed? The section is marked with "tvtropes" so you can ctrl+f it.

Link here.

Caaan anybody find me... Somebody to ♠
CDRW Since: May, 2016
#4503: Dec 29th 2011 at 8:20:26 AM

@ Crowind Thanks. Yeah, it's Luna.

Well, I just got a review back from Equestria Daily...It's got some useful advice that I'll take into account, especially about breaking up Twilight's dialogue with description...but I stopped taking them seriously when they also said Twilight's rant was an infodump of the author's headcanon. At least it was a fast response this time.

edited 29th Dec '11 8:28:49 AM by CDRW

KuroiTsubasaTenshi Streamer from Twitch Since: May, 2011
Streamer
#4504: Dec 29th 2011 at 8:59:40 AM

Sessalisk: Note that this is all commentary from a very quick glance (I'll try to give the associated passages a hard look soonish). Not counting the chapter start image, your previous chapters only have 1-2 images, which might make the 5 (I think) you have here seem like too much of a crutch (regardless of appropriateness of image) to your readers. The impact of when a picture does show up may also be dampened (although I'll have to take that harder look to get a real idea).

CDRW: Which rant was that again?

FE: New Mystery Only Feet 7PM PT Sun, Mon, Fri; Umamusume Haru Arima 7PM PT Wed, Thurs: http://www.twitch.tv/kuroitsubasatenshi
CDRW Since: May, 2016
#4505: Dec 29th 2011 at 9:13:04 AM

It was the one where Twilight goes off on her theory of why Applejack is Sub to Fluttershy's Dom. That rant is for the purposes of the story only, and is more about Twilight's characterization than either Fluttershy's or Applejack's. I don't even actually ship the two! I just wrote the story 'cause it was funny and rediculous.

I'm really trying hard to take the review with good grace and make use of it, but I'm not going to lie; the person who wrote it is pretty darn lousy at his job.

PerpetualLurker Forever Scootaloo Since: Dec, 2011
Forever Scootaloo
#4506: Dec 29th 2011 at 10:12:01 AM

Well, something to keep in mind is that all they can do is read what you wrote and try to infer your intentions from it. If the rant seems like a poorly disguised infodump, then maybe you need to make it a bit more of a blatant rant. I ran into a similar problem trying to pull off a technobable gag that also initially looked like a headcanon infodump, even though I never intended it as such. I haven't read the bit in question, of course, but that doesn't seem like an unlikely conclusion for someone reading it to reach.

CDRW Since: May, 2016
#4507: Dec 29th 2011 at 11:35:25 AM

I was actually kinda-sorta (just a teensy bit) hoping it would get rejected because I started feeling like I sent it off pre-maturely. I'm in the middle of re-writing it right now, taking most of his objections into account, but it's obvious that he didn't grasp even the most basic concepts of what I wanted the story to end up as and it realy skeeves me that I have to re-write everything he said in my head in order to make it work instead of recieving actual, usable advice. What I expected was an editor, even if it was just a half-assed one, what I got was a test audience. It's valuable for gauging reaction, but nearly useless for telling you why.

kegisak Element of Class Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Element of Class
#4508: Dec 29th 2011 at 11:55:10 AM

Have you used any of the reviewers on Ponychan? They're all much more effective than most of the prereaders. I say most because my favourite reviewer, who alas no longer does so, is a prereader and gave me a huge hand touching up Cloth Hangers before he sent it off for another to read.

At any rate, a good reviewer will give you both a good, solid editing job as well as going for a test-audience, and give you some extremely useful reactions and advice in a lot of cases.

edited 29th Dec '11 11:55:30 AM by kegisak

Birthright: an original web novel about Dragons, the Burdens of Leadership, and Mangoes.
CDRW Since: May, 2016
#4509: Dec 29th 2011 at 12:06:07 PM

I haven't tried ponychan. I'm afraid to visit any site with "chan" in the name.

Pannic Since: Jul, 2009
#4510: Dec 29th 2011 at 12:10:55 PM

It's SFW, and it's probably the most consistent way to get feedback. There are a bunch of "review threads" on the /fic/ board, so you post your thing in there and they'll give you feedback.

edited 29th Dec '11 12:11:23 PM by Pannic

kegisak Element of Class Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Element of Class
#4511: Dec 29th 2011 at 12:13:25 PM

I tend to only stick to the /fic/ board; most of the other ones I've checked are sort of jarring when compared to TV tropes, but /fic/ is still pretty good. Here's a couple of good reviewers for you to try out (though sadly both their queues are close, such is the nature of the season): Vimbert and Vanner. From what I've seen these two tend to be the most thorough, and Vimbert can be wonderfully harsh, which I find can be good, even if it hurts. I don't know if Twilight Snarkle still reviews, but if he does he was very good for me as well, I think. There's also the Samurai, but his queue is always hella' long.

edited 29th Dec '11 12:14:02 PM by kegisak

Birthright: an original web novel about Dragons, the Burdens of Leadership, and Mangoes.
Pannic Since: Jul, 2009
#4512: Dec 29th 2011 at 12:16:46 PM

Or more generally, the "Writers Training Ground," but that one can be very slow.

KuroiTsubasaTenshi Streamer from Twitch Since: May, 2011
Streamer
#4513: Dec 29th 2011 at 12:22:22 PM

To be fair, things are supposed to be proofed and edited before submission, so they really are supposed to be less editors (the submission page even states as much) and more of a test audience. And while impressions may not be as specific as full on editorial analysis, it should still tell you whether or not a given section/scene is doing what you intended it to (personally, I like analysing the impressions, because it gives me some insight on how my readers think).

[up][up] Snarkle does still review, but I'm not sure about the state of his queue, as I never visit /fic/. I just kind of catch snippets here and there of what he's doing since he hangs out in the A/WTG IRC (and he's almost always reading).

edited 29th Dec '11 12:25:52 PM by KuroiTsubasaTenshi

FE: New Mystery Only Feet 7PM PT Sun, Mon, Fri; Umamusume Haru Arima 7PM PT Wed, Thurs: http://www.twitch.tv/kuroitsubasatenshi
LMage Since: May, 2011
#4514: Dec 29th 2011 at 12:40:21 PM

So....know I want Caramel fanfiction. Prefreably pairing him with Big Mac.

kegisak Element of Class Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Element of Class
#4515: Dec 29th 2011 at 12:42:51 PM

If he absolutely must be paired with big Mac, I know there's probably plenty, but I couldn't for the life of me point you to them.

If you don't really care much, though, Patchwork is non-shippy, but fairly well received.

Birthright: an original web novel about Dragons, the Burdens of Leadership, and Mangoes.
CDRW Since: May, 2016
#4517: Dec 29th 2011 at 12:56:34 PM

Sorry to subject you guys to another rough draft, but I'm working on chapter 2 and I'm having a lot of trouble with Pinkie Pie's section at the end (it's not finished yet by the way.) I'm having a really hard time getting hold of her character. I don't want her to be a loony toon, and I certainly don't want her to go all Party Of One here, and with those two options off the table I just don't know what to do with her. Everything about the way I have her acting feels off.

The same goes for Rarity's section a little bit too, but it's much worse with Pinkie.

Pannic Since: Jul, 2009
#4518: Dec 29th 2011 at 2:16:29 PM

Alright, working on chapter 18.

I'm not quite sure if I want to make this scene into a huge reference to "I Believe," because my story hasn't really had much relation to the musical for quite a while. I'm concerned it might seem a bit out of place...

KuroiTsubasaTenshi Streamer from Twitch Since: May, 2011
Streamer
#4519: Dec 29th 2011 at 3:03:35 PM

Sessalisk: Gave it that harder look and left some comments.

FE: New Mystery Only Feet 7PM PT Sun, Mon, Fri; Umamusume Haru Arima 7PM PT Wed, Thurs: http://www.twitch.tv/kuroitsubasatenshi
CDRW Since: May, 2016
#4520: Dec 29th 2011 at 3:38:14 PM

I think I should make another go at explaining just why I'm reacting so badly to the feedback I got from Equestria Daily. I don't want anyone thinking that I just can't handle criticism.

It all stems from the comment about me using Twilight to infodump my headcanon. I. Don't. Do. That. I adamantly refuse to even develop a solid headcanon outside of the context of any single story. For me, Octavia from the show is not Octavia from the fandom, same with Vinyl, Derpy, and even the mane six themselves. I don't care who a character is shipped with so long as the story is good. I don't even have very many preferred ships. The story itself comes first, and any implication that I'm just using it to figuratively masturbate is grinds my gears.

I will not stand for people imagining up motivations for me. It is my number one, all time biggest Berserk Button. I decide why I do things, and even the slightest hint that somebody thinks they know what's going on in my head better than I do puts me on edge. When combined with the ego bruising that normally comes with a rejection, and how, aside from everything else, I think the review was a legitimately terrible example of the art of critique; I am genuinely upset about the whole thing.

pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#4521: Dec 29th 2011 at 3:42:53 PM

I can name great masters of art, but not of their critics.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
PerpetualLurker Forever Scootaloo Since: Dec, 2011
Forever Scootaloo
#4522: Dec 29th 2011 at 4:30:11 PM

A writer's intention and what they've written are two completely different, if closely related, things. All a reader can do is read, and without direct communication with the author to discuss things they draw their own conclusions based on what they've read.

A good example that I see a lot just pressing the random page button on the wiki here is Paradise Lost. Most readers find Satan to be quite sympathetic and easy enough to relate to, enough so that they don't find him to be completely evil. The author did not intend this at all, and wanted Satan to be extremely evil, tempting and corrupting people all along. It is extremely presumptuous to assume that you know exactly what the author intended of a work, and equally so for the author to assume the reader will understand their intention as well. All a writer can do is try to make it either as crystal clear as possible, or keep it ambiguous and play around that.

For your specific example (from what I can gather, correct me if I'm wrong), you have a character rant about the relationship between two characters, and the pre-reader is taking this rant to be you dumping story relevant characterization for the characters in question in order to ship them, when you intended it to be about the characterization of the character making the rant instead. You either need to somehow make it crystal clear that you are not shipping the two characters, or you need to change the subject matter of the rant so that drawing that conclusion is impossible. Otherwise you need to be prepared for people to misinterpret what you write and have it color the rest of your work.

That ended up a lot longer than I intended it to, and I could very well be wrong about everything. It's just my thoughts on the subject.

edited 29th Dec '11 4:34:27 PM by PerpetualLurker

Sessalisk from Wheeeeeeeee Since: Sep, 2011
#4523: Dec 29th 2011 at 5:02:12 PM

Thanks for the help again, Kuroi!

(This chapter's a little longer than usual, so I don't mind having a few more pictures in it than usual, either. It's mainly that one scene having like 5 images that was bugging me. lol)

edited 29th Dec '11 5:15:30 PM by Sessalisk

Caaan anybody find me... Somebody to ♠
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#4524: Dec 29th 2011 at 7:12:16 PM

[up][up] I think what he takes exception to is the fact that the critique assumes his motivation for including certain scenes. Interpreting a character's action independently of of the author's intentions is one thing, attributing intentions to the author is different.

It's the difference between saying "I find Satan to be a sympathetic character" and saying "Milton made Satan sympathetic for reason X". The first is a valid statement, the second is putting words in the author's mouth. The fact that a lot of people either don't notice or just ignore the distinction is why I don't think highly of literary criticism.

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PerpetualLurker Forever Scootaloo Since: Dec, 2011
Forever Scootaloo
#4525: Dec 29th 2011 at 7:23:35 PM

[up] Indeed, it's wrong to assume things of the author, but people are going to do it anyway. The best the author can do is minimize the risk of it happening.

Also, I've hit a bit of a stumbling block, and it'll probably seem a bit silly to you guys. My nameless, amnesiac pony needs a name, and I have absolutely zero idea of what to name him. The problem is that pony names tend to be very indicative of characterization and skills, and a the whole point of my planned character arc for him is developing from what is essentially a mildly jaded blank slate and figuring out who he is. This means I need a name that doesn't really imply anything character wise, which is far more difficult than expected due to pony naming standards.

edited 29th Dec '11 7:40:10 PM by PerpetualLurker


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