Actually, in that example, it is an important part of Agent Smith's characterization, that he is a suit. And that he is irritating Neo not just by calling him on his real name, like his former neighbors or collegues would, but exactly invoking the early scene with his annoying boss, the only other person who called him that. "Anderson-san" wouldn't have the same uncannily professional, cold feel, it would be just a normmal way dudes call each other. When Neo is shouting "MY NAME IS NEO!!!!!" he isn't just correcting the name itself, but he is fed up by being treated like the salaryman tool, that he used to be.
Also, my previous argument from the end of #86: honorifics are just associated with the culture they are from, and Smith is a very obviously american character in his presentation. Even if he isn't an actual american, the tropes that he invokes are very american.
I remember when I first saw The Matrix as a kid, with a dub, and it felt completely natural that the american secret agent character with the suit, and the glasses, is calling people Mr. Even though the rest of the dialogue was in Hungarian, it would have felt wrong if those obviously american characters would have called each other with hungarian honorifics. I'm not sure if the Japanese dub also followed that format, or what are the ubbing traditions in Japan, I guess it's possible that a country tends to use local honorifics instead of national ones, but there is nothing inherently silly about the latter, either.
For example Japanese translations aren't switching the western name orders either. John Smith doesn't change into "Smith John".
edited 23rd Jun '11 5:43:31 AM by EternalSeptember
Attack names are notoriously inconsistant in the Official English Negima annoys the hell out of me sometimes (Shundo vs Flash step but hey they couldnt even get Haruna's nickname right Paru vs Pal...) but right now its boiled down to anything in Chinese or Sanskrit stays that and anything said in japanese its translated to english.
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!Eternal September, yes, "-san" is used with far greater frequency than "Mr." and "Ms." However, my understanding was that Japanese culture places much greater emphasis on formality than most English speaking countries do. This makes me wonder if the difference in their use has to do with the words' actual meanings, or if it has to do with the levels of formality and personal detachment that Japanese culture and Anglo culture expect people to display.
Well, when you really get into an issue of the japanese language and how complex it is in its nuances, I guess you're kind of up the creek without a paddle. The honorifics can't convey all of that if you know nothing about it.
I was reading Steel Ball Run the other day, and a character in it was meant to have a really obnoxious voice to listen to. Obviously there's no way to indicate this in english in a written media, which the scanlaters pointed out themselves.
edited 23rd Jun '11 10:48:49 AM by Justin_Brett
They made him a Jerkass, but that's less his voice and more the things that are coming out of it.
I read on this very forum, a year or two ago, that it was because the American dub industry sucks. It was when I asked why Americans do "remakes" of European movies instead of dubbing them, at the time I thought it was out of pride and/or Americanitis.
edited 24th Jun '11 6:06:58 AM by Medinoc
"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Though that's kinda circular. The US dubbing industry (and the whole translation industry) sucks, only because it's small, unimportant, doesn't attract talent, and isn't vital to mainstream entertainment. More interest in foreign films would mean more good dubs.
Meanwhile, in most European and South American countries, the whole audience is watching translated works day by day. Not just as a patchwork solution for people with niche interests, but as a real, professional industry, providing all the media for millions of people.
When people call anime subbers unprofessional, they simply have no idea what the direction of "professionalism" should mean, compared to their own industry that is still in it's infancy. Is it "unprofessional", and "arrogant", when anime subbers draw their log on the title screen, or write their names into the credit list? Here is the intro of House MD as it aired in Hungary
. The voice you hear, is reading the names of the dub actors. Read aloud during the intro music. This is how it is normally done, (I assume in most other countries as well). Is it "unprofessional" and "showy" when in-universe texts get retouched to be english? Disney/Pixar even provides the raw picture and the fonts for pro translators, to do it with their animated series.
So, is it "unprofessional" to live honorifics in?
I don't think like of interest in foreigner works is that closely related to sucky dubs. Here in Brazil the Dub sucks as well, but is just because here people are really prejudiced against them. Most of our movies are imported, but we rely on subs for most of them. In fact, since dubs are considered "for kids", shows that are nor aimed at them are likely to not even get their dub for the theatre release.
So, here in Brazil dubs are also looked poorly, but not because we remake foreigner movies, but because we prefer subs over them.
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Hungaria does Reading Foreign Signs Out Loud for the actor names and their dubbers?
That would never happen in France, because we associate this trope with cartoons (especially Looney Tunes), so we usually add the dubbers to the ending credits (or sometimes, only in the DVD or game's handbook).
(Note that nowadays for English movies, I either watch them French-subbed ("VOSTFR") in theaters or English-subbed on DVD).
edited 24th Jun '11 8:49:31 AM by Medinoc
"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Adding them to the ending credits still counts for the point that I was making, that anime subbers are sometimes accused with adding their names to it only out of vanity.
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That's why I expanded the issue to translations in general. I realize that some countries use subbing as a preference. According to the wikipedia article on dubbing
, countries are quite divided on the question.
Though the difference from the USA still stands, because there, subbing and dubbing are both in minority compared to just watching local movies.
edited 24th Jun '11 9:24:44 AM by EternalSeptember
I still think the American anime dubbing industry is for the most part good, although there can still be bad dubs now and again.
I can't imagine watching a dub of anything live-action, though. It's just not how it's done in the US, for the most part. Except, as was said, for spaghetti westerns (which I take offense at being called schlock) and also for Italian films about Hercules or whatever. Actually, it's mostly because all the dialogue in Italian film back in the day was all dubbed in later whether or not it was in Italian, so that's probably why they figured they might as well dub it into English.
Always, somewhere, someone is fighting for you. As long as you remember them, you are not alone.Live action subs are held in very high regard by Americans, in fact, this may contribute to the reputation of foreign language films as somewhat snooty here (though that opinion also extends to British imports, which probably has more to do with public broadcasting being the major conduit for them.) This attitude means that those Americans who do watch foreign TV and movies tend to have high expectations on the quality of translations.
I think the main reason foreign entertainment, subbed or dubbed, accounts for such a small portion of total consumption in the US, is simply because the US produces such an enormous share of world output. This means both that Americans have more domestic productions to compete with foreign, and that foreign amounts to a smaller pool. Also, to be honest, the prevalence of multilingual proficiency is far lower in the US (though this might be traced to a similar geographical phenomenon, which is that the US is one of the largest and most isolated countries on the planet.)
You didn't see a good number of people swear and walk out when watching Pans Labyrinth and Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon?
"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."...WHY would you bring your kids to a movie like Pans Labyrinth?! Didn't the commercials themselves show off the giant hand-eye man?
But yeah, people here still don't like anything foreign if it isn't specifically catered to them.
For non-subbing examples, just look at Nier and what happened to him just to appeal to western gamers. People can't even accept Kirby unless he's made hardcore.
I for one am glad they released Pans Labyrinth subbed...
edited 25th Jun '11 3:16:37 PM by Signed
"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."Dubs: honorifics out. It just sounds weird. Subs: honorifics in, unless a show really-really does not benefit from them. Then they can be out.
As for other Japanese words, almost always it can be just normally translated. In my native language (Russian) I saw a sub group translating "shinigami" with something close to "deathbringer". It FIT the intended context perfectly, even better than the actual "death God" thing. I loved that translation.
As for honorifics in other languages, I know for a fact that in Russian, almost all English honorifics such as "Mister" are left intact. Heck, almost all European-language honorifics that I know of are always left intact. Monseiur, sinorita and the like. It got to the point where it can BE in a dub or in a "russian foreign movie" as I like to call it without problems. But I do know it may sound weird in other languages when you try to retain honorifics obsessively. In case of Japanese, though, there is simply no equivalent translation most of the time. So, unless a work REALLY does not benefit from them... they have to be in. Except for dubs. Then it just sounds weird. English dubs make it sound really strange.
edited 29th Jun '11 12:25:35 AM by Muzozavr
ERROR: Signature not loadedAs for the whole honorifics thing. I say keep it in both the dubs and subs unless the show is set in a place where they really wouldn't be using Japanese honorifics.
NO TREE FOR ME (ALSO LOVES HER BOYFRIEND)Well, this does seems to Engrish. That is a tough one, I guess. If we assume the author has a good grasp on English, then it shouldn't be changed. However, if such name was made just because the author has elementary English education, then the change is perfectly justified, but it should preferable be done after consulting the author (which, obviously, it is not possible with fansubs).
Btw, about this Gokaiger. Is it really a sentai show with pirates? And why all the images I find on google has them on the old clichéd wastelands? Shouldn't there be a sea or something?

It makes one wonder why the Japanese don't use Gratuitous Foreign Language more often.
(note that "Turtle school wave attack" already sounds less silly, but in French it's too many syllables)
Edit: FYI, in the actual French version of DBZ, this has been translated as "Vague déferlante" ("breaking wave"), with no mention of turtles... But only when speaking about the attack: When actually calling it, it was most often left untranslated.
edited 23rd Jun '11 5:59:03 AM by Medinoc
"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."