TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Request: An official judgement on character/main page trope splits

Go To

CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#1: Jun 19th 2011 at 4:32:25 PM

This post follows this thread in Ask The Tropers: Hang on, can't link to specific threads. It's the thread by callsignecho, time stamp 04:16:39 PM 19th Jun 2011

I believe this has come up before - the question of whether or not characterisation tropes should remain on the main page of a work if a character page exists. I don't believe official opinion has ever been given, but someone has asked on ATT whether tropes should be moved, and a difference in opinion has surfaced. The following are the main arguments either way:

In favour of moving all character tropes off the main page to the character page

  • Ease of navigation, since anyone looking for non-character tropes doesn't have to sift through the character tropes and vice versa
  • The main work page should serve as a summary only, and thus detailed information on characters and how tropes apply to them is better placed on a specific sub-page
  • No point in having the same trope listed on both the main page and a sub-page
  • Character and plot tropes are the most prominent, and other types do not appear in large enough quantities to see a big benefit by splitting into sub-pages. Since we have character tropes split off, no need to do likewise with plot or anything else.

In favour of having all tropes on the main page, as well as character pages if applicable

  • Ease of navigation isn't a huge issue except where the page is big enough, which is quite rare and would involve the page being split by one means or another anyway; character tropes thus aren't a reason, but a specific solution in those cases
  • The selection of character tropes appears arbitrary, in that other categories of tropes could be split off instead, such as plot, setting, technical or design tropes (with any subjectives being on the YMMV page in all cases, as applies to character pages anyway)
  • The notion that the main page is a summary only isn't necessarily policy, unless main pages are to become summary/disambiguation by default and all types of trope split into sub-pages as appropriate.
  • All objective trope types are relevant to a work, and a reader looking at a work page should be able to see them all at a glance without having to search through sub-pages. Further, relegation of such tropes to a sub-page may appear to be indicating they are less important, relevant, or trope-like than other objective tropes.
  • Duplication isn't a bad thing in this case since the character pages do provide additional specific context and detail to characters, while allowing the role those tropes play in the wider story and in the context of other tropes to be shown through inclusion on the main page as well

That's the main arguments I think. I'm trying to be neutral here, but I support the latter case for the reasons stated in the above section. As this has come up before without a clear resolution, I'd like if possible for a formal policy to be decided on this so we can view the issue consistently going forward.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
INUH Since: Jul, 2009
TheInferno |Y| = |X| Add 5 from probably on Earth Since: Jul, 2010
|Y| = |X| Add 5
#3: Jun 19th 2011 at 4:39:37 PM

I like the summary too. Quite honestly, given the arguments at this time I prefer the latter solution (include on both).

"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan
INUH Since: Jul, 2009
#4: Jun 19th 2011 at 4:46:59 PM

Honestly, while I was arguing in favor of their being sheet-exclusive, it really does depend on page size. If the page is tiny, there's no big deal about putting them in both places.

Infinite Tree: an experimental story
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#5: Jun 19th 2011 at 4:49:53 PM

I have the feeling that this may be tricky to get a one size fits all solution. I'd still like if possible some more specific guidelines than we have just now (of the "if this happens/if the page gets to roughly this level, do this, etc".

Battle Royale for example is a page I curate and I've no intention of moving the character tropes back to the main page because there's over 40 characters and the tropes for all of those (the character page isn't complete) would probably be a dozen times longer than the main page.

That, however, is the sort of extreme example that doesn't apply in most cases I think (in that work the characterisation is, even aside from sheer numbers, more important than everything else in the work put together.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#6: Jun 19th 2011 at 4:55:14 PM

I personally like seeing all the tropes on the main page. The character page is where I go if I want to learn more about specific characters, or get familiar with the cast of a series/work. If I'm just generally browsing (I love the random page button) I'll just look at the main trope page (and these days the YMMV tab, because the main page doesn't give the full whack anymore [/deadhorse argumentsmile [lol] ]), so if some non-YMMV tropes are character specific then I wouldn't see them if they are segregated. The character sheets, to me, are more for people really interested in getting into a fandom or for fans than people just doing a Wiki Walk as I often do.

Plus you can go into more detail as to how those tropes apply on a character page, the main page just notes they exist and #bob/alice is an example of it.

edited 19th Jun '11 4:56:46 PM by CrypticMirror

troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7: Jun 19th 2011 at 5:06:31 PM

Taking the character sheet as an organizational extension of the main trope list, it makes sense not to duplicate tropes between them.

TheInferno |Y| = |X| Add 5 from probably on Earth Since: Jul, 2010
|Y| = |X| Add 5
#8: Jun 19th 2011 at 9:50:44 PM

But is it a simply an organizational extension of the main trope list? I'd disagree with that.

"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan
troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#9: Jun 19th 2011 at 10:06:48 PM

I would say yes, yes it is.

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#10: Jun 19th 2011 at 10:19:36 PM

^^ If it's not an organizational extension of the main page, then what is it?

And speaking purely unofficially, you aren't likely to get an admin fiat, set-in-stone, "all pages are to be handled like this" rule from Fast Eddie for two reasons.

The first is that he really hates making set in stone rules unless there's no other way to handle a situation.

The second is that there's no one solution that will work on all pages. Some works pages are small enough that even with all of the characters and all of the character specific tropes listed on the main page, it's still a short page. Others are massive — some have multiple character pages.

edited 19th Jun '11 10:19:47 PM by Madrugada

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#11: Jun 20th 2011 at 6:30:23 AM

My opinion is the same as Madrugada's. Unless the size of the article becomes an issue, there's no reason to make a hard and fast rule that characterization tropes belong exclusively on the Characters page.

The major problem with having them in both places is that frequently a troper who edits one place won't also remember to edit the other.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#12: Jun 20th 2011 at 9:01:11 AM

Small pages probably won't be hurt by having the character tropes in both places. For really big pages with lots of characters and lots of tropes for the characters (Evangelion and Naruto immediately come to mind), it's a much better idea to have single character-specific tropes on the character page(s) and have tropes that relate to more than one character on the main page. In the latter case, the main page should have a note to go to the character page for the more specific tropes.

edited 20th Jun '11 9:01:39 AM by Willbyr

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#13: Jun 20th 2011 at 9:54:22 AM

And some pages are so small that they don't even have character sheets yet. Making a rule that character-specific tropes must go only on the character page means that they either need to be removed from those small pages, or someone needs to make character pages for them.

My personal preference is that if a work has character pages, character-specific tropes should be on the character page rather than the main page, unless it is a trope that affects the work as a whole. Then they should be on both the character sheet and the main page. Superman is an Action Hero. That's a character-specific trope, and should be on the character page for him. But it also defines the flavor of the work as a whole, and thus should also be on the main page.

edited 20th Jun '11 9:59:39 AM by Madrugada

TheInferno |Y| = |X| Add 5 from probably on Earth Since: Jul, 2010
|Y| = |X| Add 5
#14: Jun 20th 2011 at 11:20:58 AM

Like I said in Ask The Tropers, I always saw it as a different way of looking at tropes. Rather than looking at it from an overall view of the story you are looking more specifically at the tropes each character embodies. Rather than being just "Here's these tropes" and "Here's the other tropes", it's "Here's a list of all the tropes in the work" for the main page, and the Character pages are "Here's a list of the characters, and detail on what character tropes apply to them."

I don't know if I'm making sense, I woke up 5 minutes ago >_>

"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#15: Jun 20th 2011 at 12:30:31 PM

[up] Makes sense to me.

That is probably a bad sign though.[lol]

CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#16: Jun 20th 2011 at 3:20:39 PM

[up][up] Makes sense to me, and, since I don't mind duplication, is a good reason for having them on both unless the page is brokenly large.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
AndrewJ That Young Knockout Kid from Washington, DC Since: May, 2009
That Young Knockout Kid
#17: Jun 20th 2011 at 5:08:48 PM

Huh, I've always thought that "Start with character tropes on Main, then make a character sheet and move them when the page gets big enough" was pretty much the rule since we first got character sheets.

We claim the land for the highlord, God bless the land and the hiiighlooord!
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#18: Jun 21st 2011 at 10:29:38 AM

[up] Whether this is a misconception or reality is the core issue really. There are certainly some who see it both ways.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
INUH Since: Jul, 2009
#19: Jun 21st 2011 at 2:05:34 PM

See, probably the reason why I was so against putting them in both places at first is because I've never understood why a page would have a character sheet if it wasn't ready for a split.

Infinite Tree: an experimental story
Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#20: Jun 22nd 2011 at 7:57:52 AM

Same here, I've always gone under the MO of "Everything in Main, until the page is large enough that a split is needed to improve readability."

Under that scenario, there should never be a need to have Character tropes in both Main and Characters. The question is whether this method is being used in practice.

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
TheInferno |Y| = |X| Add 5 from probably on Earth Since: Jul, 2010
|Y| = |X| Add 5
#21: Jun 22nd 2011 at 8:56:24 AM

Thing is, a lot of popular shows have people make character sheets for em right off, at least that's what I've seen.

"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#22: Jun 22nd 2011 at 9:02:43 AM

Character sheets are a different way of organizing tropes. Really, that's about it. There is no fundamental reason, other than maximum article size, why they have to be exclusive to one page or the other. There are organizational and consistency issues, certainly, but good curation can handle those.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#23: Jun 22nd 2011 at 9:50:18 AM

Personally, I prefer to divide it up such that tropes go to the character page if only one character displays the trope in question. It drives me a bit batty when I see the same trope linked to under five or six different characters (Berserk Button is a frequent example; plenty of series have multiple characters with one).

I find this mainly because it actually defeats the purpose of the page to have it listed multiple times - if we're splitting the pages due to needing them to not exceed a certain size, shouldn't we keep it from having the same trope listed multiple times?

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#24: Jun 22nd 2011 at 12:47:10 PM

[up] One way or another, if the trope shows up multiple times, it'll have a new line per instance. So it's not really taking up extra space to list it again under another character.

edited 22nd Jun '11 12:47:22 PM by troacctid

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#25: Jun 22nd 2011 at 1:49:14 PM

[up]Some people do list it as such, and some list it as a sequential list all on one line. I personally prefer the latter - it helps avoid the cascading bullet points that can be mistaken for Natter even when they're not.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

Total posts: 44
Top