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Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#26: Jun 23rd 2011 at 5:33:34 PM

It shouldn't matter where the show come from, as long it is the same subgenre we are talking about.

However, it is equally true a particular subgenre is more common in a certain country. Mecha Show, for example, while is possible to exist, and it do exist in other countries, are much more common on Japanese works (or on Japanese-inspired works) then elsewhere. Similarly Superhro is more common in American comic books (to the point of dominating that medium there), but they exist elsewhere as well.

PS: I have to agree that currently, as the trope is written, the page seems to be "any lesbian love story. In Japan". This need to change, definitively. I thought it was about the subtext fueled stories where the romance is definitively there, but never seems to go anywhere.

edited 23rd Jun '11 5:36:54 PM by Heatth

whereismytea Since: Apr, 2010
#27: Jun 23rd 2011 at 5:42:29 PM

[up] Quite.

[up][up] I'm going to go off the Girls' Love description here, since this is where this discussion started:

-"This mostly anime and manga genre focuses on female/female relationships"

-"The Girls' Love genre is growing but is less well known and dabbled in than its counterpart Boys Love." (mentioning Boys' Love is a counterpart implies it is in the same category as Boys' Love—subgenre)

-"As a genre, Girls Love is targeted towards both the seinen and jousei demographics with the occasional shoujo works"

-"A lot of Girls' Love couples follow the Sempai Kohai pattern: an older, sophisticated and more popular schoolgirl, often Tall Dark And Bishoujo, and a younger, more innocent Moe girl"

-"Another very popular couple type is the Tomboy and Girly Girl: pairing up a masculine possibly bifauxnen girl with a decisively feminine girl"

-"In the past, a disproportionate amount of these ended tragically or inconclusively. Some would move on to boy-girl relationships with the romantic two-girl friendship as only a steppingstone, as assumed by traditional Japanese views on Romantic Two Girl Friendship"

If a work isn't hitting a reasonable amount of those descriptors, it's safe to say it doesn't belong on the page (whether the description is problematic is another argument).

edited 23rd Jun '11 5:43:49 PM by whereismytea

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#28: Jun 23rd 2011 at 5:52:57 PM

So, the criteria according to that are, two lesbians. What the lesbians are like is normally Tomboy and Girly Girl, or older and younger, but it doesn't really matter. That sums up pretty much everything about lesbians ever.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#29: Jun 23rd 2011 at 5:55:12 PM

[up][up] I guess the article needs to be corrected a bit since Boys' Love is only one of its counterparts.

The paragraph you're quoting the most from is describing trends in the genre, not the be all and end all of the genre as there are lots of anime and manga yuri series that have neither Sempai/Kōhai nor Tomboy and Girly Girl. Not to mention the fact that Tomboy and Girly Girl is actually pretty popular in non-Japanese lesbian works.

As for two of the other lines.

"This mostly anime and manga genre focuses on female/female relationships"

I'm certainly not arguing this point. A work listed on this page should focus on female/female relationships.

"As a genre, Girls Love is targeted towards both the seinen and jousei demographics with the occasional shoujo works."

Ie. Girls' Love is targeted towards men and women.

edited 23rd Jun '11 5:55:49 PM by CBanana

and that's how Equestria was made!
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#30: Jun 23rd 2011 at 6:09:34 PM

So, its targeted at people. I think we can make that a base assumption not worthy of comment.

I'm going to cut that nonsense line. Nobody is going to look up four words to understand a sentence.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#31: Jun 23rd 2011 at 6:11:49 PM

[up] That line is mostly to differentiate itself from Boys' Love which is only targeted towards females.

and that's how Equestria was made!
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#32: Jun 23rd 2011 at 6:15:45 PM

That point is made later, when pointing out that Boys' Love is the gender flip.

I scraped a bunch of gratuitous Japanese off the article. It actually makes some sense, now, and absolutely no information was lost.

edited 23rd Jun '11 6:16:10 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#33: Jun 23rd 2011 at 6:21:59 PM

I guess we don't need that much info on the trends in yuri and stuff like that but could we put this paragraph back as it details the fandom-speak of yuri fans in regards to the genre?:

Girls' Love is also called yuri, and can focus either on the sex or on the emotional aspects of the relationship. The latter aspect is sometimes called shoujo-ai by Western fans, who coined the term following the pattern of the Boys' Love term shounen-ai. This can be a source of confusion, as, in Japan, the term shoujo-ai is used to describe a Lolicon-type interest in very young girls.

edited 23rd Jun '11 6:23:40 PM by CBanana

and that's how Equestria was made!
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#34: Jun 23rd 2011 at 6:25:41 PM

[up][up] You actually removed the line about Tomboy and Girly Girl pairings, but as it was in gratuitous incomprehensible Japanese, I'm not surprised. I translated it and put it back in English.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#35: Jun 23rd 2011 at 6:32:25 PM

C Banana: Well, as a hottip, maybe. See, the article is defining a trope. That's is its one job. Dragging in a bunch of other information doesn't help.

The fact that it has a bunch of other names is sort of mildly interesting trivia, not really crucial information.

Thanks, shima.

edited 23rd Jun '11 6:32:51 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#36: Jun 23rd 2011 at 6:36:21 PM

[up]

Seeing as how this is more of a genre than a trope, that information seems pretty relevant.

At the very least, the fact that its also (and in fact more commonly) known as yuri should be in the description.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#37: Jun 23rd 2011 at 6:59:40 PM

Yeah, I agree that not mentioning the term Yuri at all is quite bad.

Thinking now, the common Flower Motifs is mentioned in the page. Shouldn't we mention why the motif is common (yuri is literally 'lily' in Janpanese).

edited 23rd Jun '11 7:01:38 PM by Heatth

CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#38: Jun 23rd 2011 at 7:03:48 PM

[up] I put "yuri" back into the article but only as a brief mention in the first sentence and hottipped the rest of the Japanese and fanspeak. Hopefully that's a good compromise.

edited 23rd Jun '11 7:04:10 PM by CBanana

and that's how Equestria was made!
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#39: Jun 23rd 2011 at 7:05:40 PM

Seems fine

Can I put a similar hottip in the Flower Motifs line explaining the meaning of yuri?

CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#40: Jun 23rd 2011 at 7:07:25 PM

[up] We can hottip that into the same paragraph. I'll get right on that.

Edit: Done

edited 23rd Jun '11 7:10:38 PM by CBanana

and that's how Equestria was made!
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#41: Jun 23rd 2011 at 7:13:52 PM

Seems a bit to large for a hottip, but it is fine, I guess. That paragraph about white lilies seemed kinda out of place, anyway.

While we are discussing the trope, can I take out Lesbian Vampire from the related tropes list? This trope is clearly there only due to the misunderstander this is about any lesbian story. From my understatement, Lesbian Vampire is not common on Girls' Love story at all.

Similarly, I have no idea why What Do You Mean, It's Not for Little Girls? is there.

edited 23rd Jun '11 7:14:08 PM by Heatth

CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#42: Jun 23rd 2011 at 7:16:47 PM

[up] Lesbian Vampire is more common to Girls' Love than it is to a heterosexual story although mind you, it's still not common.

What Do You Mean, It's Not for Little Girls? probably shouldn't be there though.

and that's how Equestria was made!
SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#43: Jun 23rd 2011 at 7:17:07 PM

[up][up]

I can sorta see why it was there, but the relationship is somewhat tangential. A few of the more notable "Not For Little Girls" shows of late have had strong Girls' Love aspects.

[up]

Lesbian Vampire really moves the story into a very different direction, away from what makes this not just "Stories with Lesbians"

edited 23rd Jun '11 7:17:53 PM by SakurazakiSetsuna

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#44: Jun 23rd 2011 at 7:22:27 PM

[up] The page still doesn't really explain why it doesn't work though. It's still lacking a real description of what defines this as a genre other than lesbians.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#45: Jun 23rd 2011 at 7:26:49 PM

[up][up][up]Eh, I don't think so. Looking only the anime folder of Lesbian Vampire, only one seems to be maybe Girls' Love. And even that one seems to be pushing a bit to be considered Girls' Love and not 'lesbian love story' (I never read/watch, so I can't be sure).

[up][up]What Do You Mean, It's Not for Little Girls? you mean? This would just show the Girls' Love page is being, again, confused with 'lesbian love story'.

edited 23rd Jun '11 7:28:52 PM by Heatth

CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#46: Jun 23rd 2011 at 7:28:14 PM

[up] I guess removing it is fine then since it's so far from common.

Edit: Removed.

edited 23rd Jun '11 7:53:47 PM by CBanana

and that's how Equestria was made!
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#47: Jun 23rd 2011 at 8:25:30 PM

Girls' Love is more about the romance and sub-text than actual sex or porn. The series usually have lots of Squee, Flower Motif s and other stuff Aoi Hana, Maria Sama Ga Miteru are probably the two bigest examples of that type.

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#48: Jun 23rd 2011 at 8:27:34 PM

[up] Shoujo Sect and Sono Hanabira Ni Kuchizuke Wo are yuri too and self-described as yuri.

edited 23rd Jun '11 8:31:31 PM by CBanana

and that's how Equestria was made!
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#49: Jun 23rd 2011 at 8:36:14 PM

Shoujo Sect doesnt have enough real romance but there is a bit.

Sono Hanabira Ni Kuchizuke Wo has a hell of a lot more romance than a vast majority of Visual Novels.

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
CBanana Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Since: Jan, 2001
#50: Jun 23rd 2011 at 8:41:25 PM

[up] Nothing for me to disagree with there.

and that's how Equestria was made!

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