Various points.
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And when those tropes have a pre-existing name we use it and/or explain it. English in general absorbs words from other languages all the time Hikkikomori now in the dictionary along with Otaku and a ton of other words. The cultural exchange post WWII gave both sides a ton of words and a lot of other things.
TV Tropes has always been the same with all genre and medium based terminology, even misleading ones like Alien Space Bats get to stay. (If it's used by The Other Wiki it's generally good enough for us is the general rule I go by.)
How many Latin titles do we have? It's the same thing (actually worse since it's a dead language.) French? We have those too. British spelling? Got lots of that too. Cultural Imperialism is bad the world has gotten much smaller since the invention of the Internet. We have redirects for just that reason.
Why the crusade vs Lolicon the word? It's just a pourmantou (sp) of Lolita Complex one that is in use around the world. It's base is english.
Also Yuri let's see go to any fanfiction site any big or small big ones like Fanfiction.net , Adultfanfiction.net etc probably millions of users. Look up any Girls' Love fic (doesn't matter if its related to anime) and you will most likely find the term used. Yaoi is even worse (Most actually don't get that the term Yaoi is based off an insult that means "No point".) and on external link usage of redirects.... You cant go to the address bar and copy and paste a redirect so of course people are going to link the main title more.
Post ninjaed (another Japanese word) a bunch of times.
edited 27th Jun '11 1:48:53 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!@ Fast Eddie - Correct me if I'm wrong but the big problem you had with my article draft
was you didn't like the use of the unhottipped words Bara, Sempai/Kouhai, and Yuri. I'm perfectly willing to tweak the draft to remove Bara from the second paragraph, and hide Sempai/Kouhai under a pothole. It seems a little weird that we can't refer to trope names even if we use a laconic sentence to explain them but whatever floats your boat.
However, the word yuri has to be given proper due because it's an incredibly ubiquitous word for the genre and the draft only brings it up to basically explain it to non-anime fans.
edited 27th Jun '11 4:06:09 AM by CBanana
and that's how Equestria was made!Romance has 6 inbounds. Romance Novel has 140. Girls' Love has 2400. And you argue that Girls' Love is as obscure as the first one, and the second one would be ideal to be more mainstream.
As Raso said, Yuri is a redirect, it's very inconvinient to put it into an URL, and no one is going to do it pointlessly. Even The Big Bad as a redirect also has 300 wicks and 0 inbounds.
And Seinen has 483 inbounds. I clicked on our random page button ten times, ten english articles came out. 8 of them had less than 100 wicks, two had between 100 and 200.
Congratulations, you managed to dig up at least one manga-related page, that is only four or five times as popular as the average english pages. Also, note that Seinen is not a genre, or even a trope, just a list of manga and anime that were aimed at the 18-35 year old demographic. It's inherently a dull, basic subject. Do you honestly expect, that if we would have a page on TV Shows Targeted At The 18-35 Years Old Demographic, it would get an army of readers, just because it's title is so easy to understand?
Basically, you looked at Girls' Love, and claimed that it's obscure and misleading. Then, instead of proving that the page itself is, in fact, misused or underused, you set up a theory that all titles coming from the anime fandom are obscure, and that all pre-existing genre names that could be interpreted as tropes are obscure.
To prove that, you took a japanese term of your own choice ( an index of a publishing format), and a genre page of your own choice ( a two line long stub), and claimed that these prove that all other terms must also be obscure. There is so much Confirmation Bias in that kind of "proof", that I don't even know where to begin.
Basically, I could grab a couple of random low-profile tropes that start with the letter B, and use it as proof that the letter B scares away readers.
And if they see that we took away the one and only name it has, they will also form a judgment on the wiki. We could call this trope Japanese Girls Love Genre, but, as it was repeatedly said, there is a rather large crowd of people who are already familiar with Girls' Love as the name of a japan-jentric genre. To all of them, that other title would sound just plain incorrect. As pointlessly redundant, as Drawn Japanese Anime, or Written Romance Novel Of Love, or Scary Recorded Horror Movie.
It would portray us as people who have no clue what we are talking about, and just make up things as we go along.
Don't exaggerate. None of us had to learn Japanese to understand a few loanwords, not any more than having to learn greek to understand Deus ex Machina.
The trope titles that we have from foreign languages, are mostly loanwords, that already fit into the english language at least to a certain extent. Some of them are even in the english dictionary. Other, equally well-known ones, aren't.
Like, in the above example, the term for "Anime" itself is coming from Japan. We could really say, by following your direction, that since it must be explained to all common english folks, it should be called Drawn Japanese Anime that is more expressive.
I'm all about accessibility, but after a certain point, well-known terms from foreign cultures, can be more easily understood, by more people, than awkward attempts at trying to be english for the sake of being english.
edited 27th Jun '11 11:46:04 AM by EternalSeptember
I suspect that part of the conflict here may be about the intended audience. Who are we trying to communicate with and what are we trying to tell them?
After rereading the current page description I think that someone who isn't conversant with anime would have an understanding of the genre from what is there. The Japanese terms that are there are used sparingly enough to not come across as jargon. The information in the hottip isn't necessary and it is confusing. If a commonly used fan term is based on a misunderstanding of how the language works it seems that it would be more culturally respectful to avoid using the inappropriate term altogether.
I would like to see an explanation in the description of the fundamental difference between the intended audience for Girls' Love works and the intended audience for Queer Romance. I am familiar with El Cazador De La Bruja and Tipping The Velvet and wonder why the former is not listed as an example but the latter is.
Moderator speaking: I would also like to see this discussion continue as a discussion. The tone of some of the previous posts cross past civility and into rudeness. Name calling and yelling will result in a 24 hour forum ban. Asking questions is a better way of understanding another person's point of view, try looking at that rather than seeing the discussion as an attack on your own perspective.
Also, even if the site admin is talking as a private troper being rude to him is just not bright.
We were in the process of figuring out what exactly the overlap between the different terms was, when this thread got derailed. Also, you are aware that the word anime has a different meaning in Japan than the one used anywhere else in the world, right?
As for the current title, could someone who knows how to do that whole statistical analysis thing check the wicks for misuse?
Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.My statement was that the term was based on a misunderstanding of how the language works based on this sentence:
The less explicit works are sometimes called "shoujo-ai" by Western fans, who coined the term following the pattern of the Boys' Love term "shounen-ai". This can be a source of confusion, as, in Japan, the term "shoujo-ai" is used to describe a Lolicon-type interest in very young girls.
I did not say that the term was based on a misunderstanding of the definition.
This is how derails happen. It was more important for you to prove that I was somehow wrong, than it was for you to pay attention to what I was saying.
Fanfic users use Shojo-Ai and Shonen-Ai to mean Girls' Love and Boys' Love IE ShoujoAi Fanfiction Archive (NSFW warning there is smut on the site.)
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Its what Fanfic users use. (however they use a different meaning than what the normal Japanese use it. Its like using a Bloody hell in the US it would mean just that but in England its a cuss word.)
French
Italian
A japanese site that translates english Yuri fanfiction to japanese.
(Might be NSFW.)
edited 27th Jun '11 9:33:27 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!![]()
I am paying attention to what you are saying, and I'm still not getting how "misunderstanding of how the language works" is different from misunderstanding the definition of a term.
edited 27th Jun '11 9:27:57 AM by Killomatic
Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.OK, the assumption made by the fanbase was that appending -ai to the root word shoujo would have a parallel meaning to the term "shounen-ai" when it does not. That is not understanding how the language works. In American English you can have a football but not a legball. Unless you are drawing a cartoon of someone running really fast. But legball doesn't mean what you would think it means based on what football means.
This is now so far off topic it is ridiculous. If it is that important to perpetuate that misusage than by all means knock yourselves out. Then perhaps we can move onto discussing the differences between Girls' Love and Queer Romance.
edited 27th Jun '11 10:02:11 AM by blackcat
Unless I'm misunderstanding here, which is entirely possible, both shounen-ai and shoujo-ai exist in Japanese, they are just synonyms for Shotacon and Lolicon, while in English they are synonyms (more or less) for BL and GL. It's not so much like football and "legball", more like how Americans took the word football and used it for a completely different sport, while back in the UK and everywhere else it still means the same as soccer. It's not misusage, it's cross-cultural connotations.
Can someone more familiar with the Japanese language confirm or deny this?
edited 27th Jun '11 10:33:47 AM by Killomatic
Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.I'm still sorry for my rudeness earlier. I didn't meant to come off that way. It's just that the discussion was going nowhere and I feel like Fast Eddie's stance is not the right one.
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Quick glance:
- Queer Romance: A super-genre centered around homosexual romance.
- Girls' Love: Either:
- A term used by publishers for Japanese lesbian romance, usually manga/anime/light novels.
- A term used by readers to apply to lesbian romance in general.
For Girls' Love, I think the first definition is the one to use.
I think a good compromise is to split Girls' Love and make a Lesbian Romance page, a more international genre, and then have Girls' Love only apply to Japanese lesbian romance.
Trying to rename Girls' Love in any way isn't the way to go. It's a commonly used name by both publishers and readers alike, therefore it's more justified than 90 percent of other names on the wiki, because it's an official term. Trying to rename it on the presumption that western readers won't know what it means is, in my opinion, using Viewers Are Morons. Also, see everything else stated above.
And trying to hide Japanese references is even worst. It has Unfortunate Implications. You can't gloss over the history of it, as it is unhealthy. The history of the genre has to be told.
EDIT:
We're bringing up all those pages because if Fast Eddie's proposal is used, the same logic has to be applied to all those pages. For example, all the explanation of the terminology on the Boys' Love page would have to be nuked. That isn't what we think is the way to go.
This is more important than you think. The decision made in this thread could change the policy of the wiki, or at least cast it in a new light.
edited 27th Jun '11 10:48:48 AM by chihuahua0
Again, this is kind of a side issue isn't it? A discussion of shoujo-ai and shonen-ai is interesting and all and I like the image of a legball and the soccer/football thing is an interesting point about meaning drift and I'm not going to argue about the fandom usage of shoujo-ai because it just isn't that important to me.
What is important is defining the differences between Girls' Love and Queer Romance.
Edit to add: And unfortunately I have too much work to do to participate in this discussion for the time being.
edited 27th Jun '11 10:42:22 AM by blackcat
Tropes are the difference between Girls' Love and Queer Romance the ones that people keep trying to remove off the page. Girls' Love almost always have a different tone than other works, Have a Sempai/Kōhai dynamic (which can not translate into English.) Excessive use of Flower Motifs or Love Flowers, "Romantic" Two-Girl Friendship, School Girl Lesbians, Tall, Dark and Bishōjo, Situational Sexuality, most do not follow Seme, Uke (if it does exist in the work its almost always inverted.) In addition to it being a whole marketed genre. As well as the other massive differences from the Boys' Love genre.
I don't even want to get into Boys' Love and its dynamics (and its subpages Boys Love Notes types and terminology.) lest the rabid Yaoi Fangirls kill me and there is a freaken army of them.
edited 27th Jun '11 11:40:00 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!Then for god's sake let's leave Boys' Love out of it for the time being.
Why does Tipping The Velvet fit Girls' Love but El Cazador De La Bruja does not?
I have no idea I have never seen or read the works.
Is the main focus of El Cazador De La Bruja the actual relationship between the two main characters? Lots of subtext, Squee moments, WAFF aka Warm Fussy Feeling (this actually might be the most important part) maybe a bit of Love Flowers or Love Bubbles?
edited 27th Jun '11 12:43:17 PM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!OK, I'm asking more questions not because I'm trying to make anyone faint but I'm playing Tropes Battleship.
The movies: Daphne, The Gymnast, Out At The Wedding?
The character of Eugenie and the woman she elopes with in The Count Of Monte Cristo?
How about Idgie and Ruth in Fried Green Tomatoes?
Alice B. Toklas and Gertrude Stein? Celeste and Ramelle in Six Of One?
edited 27th Jun '11 1:59:41 PM by blackcat
I don't know them, but based on their trope pages, all of the ones you asked about seem to be mainly other genres, with an afterthought of implying that two characters seemed to be attracted to each other, or even were in a relationship all along.
That's just Les Yay. Girls' Love is about the relationship drama. Saying that these are Girls' Love would e like saying that Star Trek is Boys' Love due to it's Ho Yay subtext.
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El Cazador De La Bruja is a Girls with Guns show, but like many of those, the primary focus outside the action is the relationship between the two leads. And its far more blatant about it than even Noir was, which basically codified the Girls with Guns Girls' Love dynamic.
So Girls' Love is specifically about the love story between the two characters.
- Celeste and Ramelle are an established couple from the beginning of Six Of One, so even though the story of how they get together is told in the novel, it isn't Girls' Love. And there are a zillion other plots in the book.
- Idgie and Ruth get together in Fried Green Tomatoes but because the story is told in two different eras and is about a bunch of other stuff, it is not Girls' Love.
- In Out At The Wedding the relationship between Jeanie and Risa is questionable because at first Jeanie thinks Risa is Alex's girlfriend (and the whole thing is based on A Mid Summer Night'sDream).
- Daphne is about the relationship between Daphne de Maurier and Gertrude Lawrence, and isn't Girls' Love because it is based in reality? The women are mature and married to men?
I'd say that to qualify as Girls' Love, a work has to have a significant emphasis on the emotional connection between women, and it does not explicitly require them to get together officially at the end, but there has to be heavily romantic undertones to the relationship. "Romantic" Two-Girl Friendship stories almost always qualify as Girls' Love.
These elements can take place within a work of a different genre entirely.
- Girlfriends is straight (haha) up Girls' Love, it is explicitly about the romance between two girls.
- Saki is a Sports Story (with Mahjong, but very similar tropes), with heavy Girls' Love aspects between a number of couples, with varying levels of explicitness
- Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica is a Magical Girl series, where the plot is driven by one girl's love for another so strong it prompts her to voluntarily enter a Groundhog Day loop to save her
edited 27th Jun '11 2:34:43 PM by SakurazakiSetsuna

@blackcat
Um, by reading how non-fans talk about anime and such and noticing what terms they use?
I mean, it's actually kind of funny; a pet peeve of mine is that people very frequently use "yaoi" and "yuri" instead of "slash"—even when they're not talking about Japanese works, which makes it especially annoying—so it's kind of bewildering hearing it claimed that they're obscure terms versus the English equivalents.
edited 26th Jun '11 8:30:04 PM by Jeysie
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