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Zero Tolerance in Schools

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dorcus from lurking in the shadows Since: Jun, 2010
#76: Jun 5th 2011 at 12:57:53 PM

At my school the district makes all sorts of insane rules to protect kids without ever anyone on the "rules committee" ever setting foot inside a single school. (I'm serious) Then they created dumb rules like not being allowed to play tag at recess, no hand sanitizer allowed in school because kids could get high, no knives, nothing that looks like knives, no guns, and hand sanitizer must be available in all restrooms (yes even though its not allowed.) Worst of all, when students leave class they need to take their TEACHERS ID CARD as a hall pass. (the one that lets teachers into the teacher work room ect.) Guess how many ID's got "lost" within the first week of that policy. Thankfully our teachers and school administrators follow whatever new rule for about a week, make a big deal about the change. And then promptly go back to the way it was before.

edited 5th Jun '11 12:58:14 PM by dorcus

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Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#77: Jun 5th 2011 at 4:34:44 PM

I know they banned hats at my brothers school cause it's a gang sign or some such.

Fight smart, not fair.
thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#78: Jun 5th 2011 at 5:33:25 PM

I've noticed a surprisingly universal hatred of ZT by the administration, who the hell actually likes this rule?

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Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#79: Jun 5th 2011 at 5:34:44 PM

Politicians and moral guardians?

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
Enkufka Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ from Bay of White fish Since: Dec, 2009
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
#80: Jun 5th 2011 at 5:36:32 PM

Mainly people unconnected to the school itself. They make rules without knowing their effects immediately. Good administrators will try and get figures on how well the policies are going down. Bad ones will try and keep doing things without input from faculty. I think ZT comes from bad ones.

That's my guess, though.

edited 5th Jun '11 5:36:47 PM by Enkufka

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry
OnTheOtherHandle Since: Feb, 2010
#81: Jun 6th 2011 at 4:08:46 PM

Yeah, I would agree that ZT showed up mostly because of the sue-happy culture in the US. They can't trust overprotective parents not to sue them for some accident that occurred on school grounds, so they have to go to ridiculous lengths to ensure that nothing happens. Of course, it is fueled by Moral Guardians and paranoid parents.

@Standards that schools must meet: It's my guess that they've just abandoned most standards beyond "Make sure the kids don't die/get high/have rampant sex." Of course, they're failing at that as well, because kids don't bring drugs to school; they do them after school. Do the staff really think that kids will be eating meth-laced lollipops and get blatantly high in the middle of class?

"War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left." "Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future."
thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#82: Jun 6th 2011 at 5:06:35 PM

hmm, I know stupid grade nines sometimes try to take pills/w.e. in class because they're fucking idiots. They don't last long, obviously.

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dorcus from lurking in the shadows Since: Jun, 2010
#83: Jun 7th 2011 at 8:54:05 AM

We had someone try and smoke pot in the ceiling tiles. They fell through and got caught.

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Ettina Since: Apr, 2009
#84: Jun 7th 2011 at 10:06:10 AM

Regarding they idea of kids being too dumb to do certain misbehavior, reminds me of a story where my Dad and his classmates were left unoccupied in a classroom while another class nearby got to watch TV. Annoyed at being left without anything fun to do, they designed a radio transmitter to disrupt the TV with (it ended up disrupting every TV/radio for several blocks around). When they got caught, the teacher knew my Dad had to have been the ringleader, because he was the only kid who actually knew how to build something like that.

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AwayLaughing Away from North of Broadway (Seven Years' War) Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
Away
#85: Jun 7th 2011 at 12:04:49 PM

Some of these stories are absolutely unbelievable. In my school zone ZT was officially implemented and then the schools refused to support it because they felt it "ignored extenuating circumstances" and that "blanket policies are to the detriment of our students."

It was, and mostly likely remains, a well known fact that you can always tell someone is smoking something illegal (or is underage) by whether or not they follow the "no smoking on school property" rule. If they do, they're under 16 or smoking pot. Since everyone knows this, someone once asked one of the VP's why they don't do something about it. The response went something like this, "they're going to do pot anyway, may as well be able to keep an eye on them and make sure they can go lie down in the nurse's office when they get more then they bargained for".

Therefore, these stories boggle my mind. Mind you, I'm not in the states and litigation is trickier in Canada, so that could be part of it. I'm also in a fairly liberal area, even for Canada.

frog753 Non-Action Guy from CT and/or MA Since: Jul, 2009
#86: Jun 8th 2011 at 1:49:46 PM

This thread sure makes me glad that I went to a small and rather unconventional private high school...

Interestingly enough, this thread piqued my interest in this whole subject enough that when I noticed a new book in the library about such things, I took it out. It's called Lockdown High: When the Schoolhouse Becomes a Jailhouse and it's by Annette Fuentes. I haven't gotten that far but it seems like a good critical look at ZT and similar policies and how we got to them and whatnot.

Also, most absurd book ever written about this general subject: After by Francine Prose. It almost works as a terrifying parable of ZT taken to its ultimate conclusion, until so much Fridge Logic hits and it stops being effective even as a parable. I love complaining about how absurd it is, even though it kind of scared the crap out of me when I read it.

edited 8th Jun '11 1:50:06 PM by frog753

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OnTheOtherHandle Since: Feb, 2010
#87: Jun 8th 2011 at 2:25:38 PM

Although it's more of a criticism of the Patriot act, Little Brother by Cory Doctorow sort of explores what would happen with ZT on steroids.

"War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left." "Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future."
pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#88: Jun 8th 2011 at 2:56:02 PM

The advantage to having gone to school way back in the early-mid nineties:

I carried a swiss army kinife in school, all the time. It's a tool, and many students I knew carried a knife for utility purposes. I wore a black trenchcoat in the hot spring months, junior and senior years, and a surplus cameoflage Field Jacket during the colder months. We played Killer with toy squirt guns during lunchtime (no water, so as not to make a mess), or tabletop RPG's. We wore whatever color we wanted, we were only limited to no obscene or too-revealing garb, and everything else was pretty much fair game. Those students who were eighteen or older were free to smoke in a designated area, or dip, so long as they didn't make a mess. We even had LAN parties with Marathon on the Macintosh machines after hours - beat the snot out of the A/V teacher, too...

All of that, and we didn't have a prevalent drug problem, we didn't have a gang problem, we didn't have a violence problem, and we all pretty much got along more or less. Student population was about twelve hundred or so.

The problem kids who did try to start crap were dealth with, fairly. We had random occasional locker searches for knives (larger than three inches was a no-no) and firearms, but that was it. I visited the school after graduation in BDU's after graduating boot camp (just walked right in unannounced and asked if a certain teacher was arond) and said hi to some folks, no hassle, no fuss.

What happened?

Did common sense freaking die once I grew up?

This is just one more reason why I'm going to be homeschooling my children, to keep them from dealing with this asinine ZT crap.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
#89: Jun 11th 2011 at 5:39:02 AM

I once heard that my school district expelled a kid for sharing his inhaler with another kid who would have died otherwise.

wuggles (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#90: Jun 11th 2011 at 6:02:57 AM

My school has a weird version of this going on. I think technically we have that policy, but I guess there's enough people (about 1500) in the school that they don't catch half the people with drugs. Those that are caught usually deserve it and usually end up going to alternative school. I've been pretty lucky in that regard. Technically you're also not allowed to have drugs with you except if you have permission, but they don't really care, the drug dogs just walk around the hallways once every few months or so.

OnTheOtherHandle Since: Feb, 2010
#91: Jun 11th 2011 at 8:06:48 AM

It's funny, though, we actually barely have any enforcement on this policy that we have in place. No police officers, no drugs dogs, nothing. It just all depends on a teacher spotting you. Except when they check you before letting you enter for a dance - then they have a metal detector and they go through your purse.

"War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left." "Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future."
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#92: Jun 12th 2011 at 12:06:12 PM

Yes, common sense is dead. That's what happens when you let the general public have votes.

Fight smart, not fair.
AllanAssiduity Since: Dec, 1969
#93: Jun 12th 2011 at 12:18:12 PM

"Common sense is not so common."
— Voltaire

Enkufka Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ from Bay of White fish Since: Dec, 2009
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
#94: Jun 12th 2011 at 3:30:14 PM

I find that common sense is conflated with reason, so what is common sense to one person ("Punish all crimes equally and there will be no crime") is utterly ridiculous to someone who uses reason to realize that its a bad idea.

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry
Usht Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard from an arbitrary view point. Since: Feb, 2011
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#95: Jun 12th 2011 at 3:38:31 PM

Common sense is how I say you're stupid.
—Stephen Colbert

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theTamer (Don’t ask)
#96: Oct 15th 2013 at 12:28:14 PM

Trust me, This bullshit should not exist because of how they are enforced

Shepherd Since: Mar, 2011
#97: Oct 15th 2013 at 12:37:32 PM

The real reason zero tolerance policies are stupid isn't because minor infractions get blown up - it's because you can't deter a kid who has a penchant for troublemaking by kicking him out of school. He doesn't want to be there anyways, might not have any sort of discipline at home to begin with, and he gets to run the streets and learn how to get into real trouble. The kid who gets suspended because he had a toy gun is going to be fine the rest of his life. The kid who fights all the time is just going to go back home and hang with the people that teach him to fight.

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#98: Oct 15th 2013 at 12:54:19 PM

I think that, as a culture, we've transitioned from, "that kid behaves badly, and he needs special attention to figure out why he acts like this, but all children are important, so let's give him the focus he needs to turn his life around and become a productive member of society," to "that kid is a Bad Kid, and he should be expelled and shunned until he spontaneously stops existing, because I don't want my children living in a world where Bad Kids exist."

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Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#99: Oct 15th 2013 at 1:43:56 PM

Of course, they're failing at that as well, because kids don't bring drugs to school; they do them after school.

To be fair, the rent-a-cops busted a lot of kids on the school campus with plenty of drugs on them, and more than once when my theater class broke into groups in the halls the cops chased a kid down right there in front of me. And then there was the methadone ring that was selling during basketball games and caused a kid to OD and die. And there were the idiots in Biology that tried to sell pot to the teacher.

edited 15th Oct '13 1:44:41 PM by Pykrete

Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
#100: Oct 18th 2013 at 4:02:58 PM

School's "Zero Tolerance" policy towards booze gets model student at Boston suburb high school punished.

Summary: Erin Cox was texted by a friend to ask for a ride home from a party where there was underage drinking, including by Cox's friend. Police hit the party, make a couple of arrests of some and give citations to everyone else including Cox.

So what does her school do? Under their "Zero Tolerance" policy about booze, she gets suspended from school and its volleyball team for five games, and loses her position as team captain, even though the police say that she was not intoxicated, and was polite to the officers on the scene according to an e-mail from one of the officers involved.

Now, I understand that underage drinking can be a serious problem, but it strikes me as exceedingly stupid that a young lady who did nothing wrong except reduce the drunk driver count on the road by one is punished for helping a friend.

(The school's lawyer claiming to a judge that Cox was arrested instead of the citation she did actually get, doesn't exactly make me think any more kindly of the school... tongue )

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