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Pruning, and possibly a new name: Cake Eater

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Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#26: Jul 1st 2011 at 8:36:12 AM

I agree that Cake Eater implies something more specific than this trope truly is, and thus this one should probably be renamed.

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Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#27: Jul 1st 2011 at 9:16:42 AM

Wait, are you guys saying that this should include any younger man who's with, or interested in a particular older woman? Because that's not what I'm getting from the description at all. I really disagree with making this broader than it currently is. It may well be that this is a trope that is mostly used in Japanese works. If so, leave it at that.

It's the gender flip of Mrs. Robinson: a younger man who prefers or pursues older women in general.

Benjamin Braddock in The Graduate isn't a Cake Eater; he's having an affair with Mrs Robinson (because she instigated it), but he's more interested in her daughter, who is his own age. Same for Harold in Harold And Maude; his preference isn't older women in general, it's Maude specifically.

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#28: Jul 1st 2011 at 9:31:23 AM

[up]The gender flip of Mrs. Robinson would be an older man trying to seduce a younger woman. This trope would be the inverted form of Mrs. Robinson (since it inverts who is interested in pursuing whom).

I suppose the problem with putting in just any example of a guy going after an older woman is the same problem as extrapolating any given person's sexual or relationship preferences in a work where only one partner is really shown.

Though to be fair, Finch has multiple lines in the American Pie movies that strongly suggest that Stiffler's mom awakened in him an appreciation for older women in general. I think it will require some contextualizing for each example.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#29: Jul 1st 2011 at 9:39:26 AM

[up][up] I agree with you. My issue is that Christmas Cake is defined specifically as an unmarried woman over the age of 25. If Cake Eater allows for women that don't meet that criteria, then Christmas Cake is a poor choice of tropes to base the name off of.

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Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#30: Jul 1st 2011 at 10:15:17 AM

Well, I think that's part of it. I don't think that a 16 or 17 year-old guy going after a 20 or 21 year-old woman is really "prefers "older women" ", mostly because "older woman" is often used to indicate a particular age range (generally, in my experience, 30 to 35 is the lower bound; the upper bound can be anywhere from 50-ish up, if there even is an upper bound) rather than simply meaning "older than him". A 20- or 23-year old may be 'older than him', but she's not an 'older woman'.

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#31: Jul 1st 2011 at 10:48:51 AM

Most are 16-20ish going after 30 somethings. (and the inverted with Asuna in Negima gets yells at how they dont get her taste in men, they talk about time travel first thing that pops in her mind is going to the prohibition era where there all kinds of cool older men, its her thing.]])

In Love Hina one of Those Two Guys Shiri (19 I think) is constantly going off about how Haruka is the hottest despite her being Christmas Cake and like 35 even in a room full of girls that near his own age in Yukatas.

edited 1st Jul '11 10:49:42 AM by Raso

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Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#32: Jul 1st 2011 at 10:56:55 AM

This may be one where we want to do a soft-split based on whether the works is using Japanese cultural expectations ("Christmas Cake" starts at 25) and Western cultural expectations (an "older woman" is at generally at least a thirty-something).

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#33: Jul 1st 2011 at 11:05:53 AM

Well most Christmas Cake in japan 25 is usually when pressured to meet people for an Arranged Marriage and other things (usually by their mom) but Cake Eater s themselves I have only seen targeting over 30 in works or age not specified but look the part.

(Christmas Cake examples should probably require a reaction or someone commenting on it.)

edited 1st Jul '11 11:26:57 AM by Raso

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TripleElation Diagonalizing The Matrix from Haifa, Isarel Since: Jan, 2001
Diagonalizing The Matrix
#34: Jul 20th 2011 at 10:28:05 AM

I ran across this today and saw the banner at the top. Are we discussing renaming this? If we aren't, we should be.

edited 20th Jul '11 11:08:30 AM by TripleElation

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#35: Jul 20th 2011 at 10:46:38 AM

I've seen Spike's crush on Rarity listed as an example of this on the My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic characters page. Granted, Spike is only a little boy, but Rarity is implied to be the pony equivalent of a teenager; that would still not put her over the "25" mark from which Cake Eater gets its name.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#36: Jul 20th 2011 at 10:51:16 AM

I'd favor renaming both this and Christmas Cake, which I seem to see misused all the time. Something like 'Too Old' To Marry for Christmas Cake and... I dunno, Cougar Hunter or something for Cake Eater.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#38: Jul 20th 2011 at 11:01:20 AM

Well, the Too Old part would hopefully be in quotations. The problem is that people seem to be applying it to characters who are just over 25 and unmarried, or occasionally even under 25 and unmarried whether they have some of complex or not. Like Misae Sagara in Clannad, an example I cut before. 23 years old and if anything celibate by choice. The basic idea behind the trope is that once a woman has hit a certain age, even if she's still young she's starting to get desperate or her family starts really pushing her towards marriage..

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#39: Jul 20th 2011 at 11:07:08 AM

Or she herself is angsty or a little sensitive about it Nothing in it is "Too old" at all its just they are not married yet.

Christmas Cake is a pre-existing term used for exactly what this trope describes. Cake Eater however is not, Cake Eater is also too specific for the trope anyway as well not all older girls are Christmas Cake. (some go after Stacy's Mom.)

Likes Older Women or Likes Older Men would be a good name for this I think. (although the only inversion of this that is not a Gold Digger I can think of is Asuna as I said earlier in the thread)

edited 20th Jul '11 11:11:10 AM by Raso

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Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#40: Jul 20th 2011 at 11:10:38 AM

Um, they're angsty about it because the perception is that by a certain age you're supposed to be married and if you're not you probably won't get married at all. How is that not them getting too old? And even if Christmas Cake is a preexisting term, I really doubt it's widely used apart from anime fans. I mean, the idea it's based on is not nearly as strong in our culture as in Japan.

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#41: Jul 20th 2011 at 12:58:57 PM

Christmas Cake is simply "Old Maid but in Japan" and the only difference at all is that the Japanese version is an Old Maid at 25 while in the West the age-line is vaguer.

Is there anything different in the way a Christmas cake is written or treated within the work that varies substantially from this description?

"When a female character reaches a certain vaguely defined age threshold, she will be treated with the most terrible of insults- "Old Maid". As in, no one wants to marry a woman who is too old because all the cool guys only want young wives. Often this doesn't even have to be a literal threat —simply the idea that a woman is nearing the point at which she is incapable of snagging a husband is a horrific insult and reflects poorly on her ability to attract a mate. And, by extension, her real value to society."

edited 20th Jul '11 1:01:04 PM by Madrugada

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#42: Jul 20th 2011 at 1:01:17 PM

Old Maid has a pretty vague threshold—in Real Life as well as the trope. Christmas Cake is easier: In a Japanese work, any unmarried woman over the age of 25 will have a complex about it.

EDIT: Edit ninja'ed

edited 20th Jul '11 1:02:19 PM by Discar

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#43: Jul 20th 2011 at 1:04:02 PM

[up][up] There are a lot of cultural differences in addition to the age difference. As well as most have a very specific complex and parental and other kinds pressure with Arranged Marrage, Marrage Interview and so on. There have been many RL studies on this and such.

If you have seen Azumanga Daioh that is a stereotypical example and she is only 25.

edited 20th Jul '11 1:09:49 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#44: Jul 20th 2011 at 1:08:39 PM

Christmas Cake really should be split from Old Maid. They are different ages generally and there tends to be a very culturally specific view of it the Japanese take.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#45: Jul 20th 2011 at 1:32:14 PM

Well, yeah, not saying we should merge them. I simply find Christmas Cake a bad name and Cake Eater is a bad clone off of it.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#46: Jul 20th 2011 at 1:34:23 PM

Christmas Cake isn't a bad name. It's a culturally specific trope with a culturally specific name. The issue is that people are trying to shoehorn examples into it that don't fit that baggage, and then someone gave it a horrible snowclone.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#47: Jul 20th 2011 at 1:38:55 PM

So we universally agree that this trope, at least, has a bad name? Again, I personally think Christmas Cake is utterly opaque, and I still have trouble seeing why it isn't just Old Maid in Japan, but an argument can be made in its defense. I see no such argument for Cake Eater.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#48: Jul 20th 2011 at 1:40:04 PM

Okay, but people try to shoehorn things into it rather frequently. Don't you think the rather vague name might be related to that?

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#49: Jul 20th 2011 at 1:40:36 PM

I would suggest a new thread if people want to discuss Christmas Cake itself - at the very least, I think there's general agreement that this trope needs much work.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#50: Jul 20th 2011 at 2:35:01 PM

Part of the reason for the difference between a regular Old Maid and Cake Eater is that an Old Maid is likely to be significantly older. 25 is not that old.

Fight smart, not fair.

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