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Pruning, and possibly a new name: Cake Eater

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32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#1: Jun 3rd 2011 at 6:38:41 AM

Going through the Cake Eater trope, I noticed that it needed some work in three ways:

1) It has some inversions listed, when inversions of the trope already have two different trope pages, to be used according to the target's gender. (If you're wondering why I'm not cleaning that up myself, it's to alert people to problems on the page).

2) There seems to be a lack of cohesive structure as to what actually counts - in one instance, a 16-year old is listed under this trope for falling for an 18-year old. I know that a year or two matters much more when younger, but that still strikes me as a bit absurd. There probably should be a standard as to just what qualifies as one's age bracket and, thus, what would qualify one for the trope (I'd personally guess ten years of age difference).

3) Upon consideration, the name isn't all that great. It's unintuitive, and it requires knowledge of another trope (Christmas Cake) to even make sense. And while I do know that Christmas Cake is a slang term in Japanese that has filtered over to anime fandom outside of Japan, I don't think Cake Eater has the TV Tropes definition anywhere outside of the site itself.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
StarryEyed Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: If you like it, then you shoulda put a ring on it
#2: Jun 3rd 2011 at 7:35:08 AM

I only saw one inversion in the sense of an older woman pursuing a younger guy (and even then, it probably still counts because it sounds like the guy was just as on board with it as she was). There were a fair number of Gender Flipped examples, with the younger woman being interested in older men, but unless there's a female-specific equivalent trope, those are correct.

As far as the age difference goes, I agree that 16/18 isn't an example. But it's impossible to set an "X number of years difference" standard because it really depends on the ages of the people involved. As the Star Wars examples says, 30/35 isn't a big deal, but 9/14 IS. (It also doesn't help that Natalie Portman was clearly NOT 14 when she played the role, whereas Jake Lloyd was 10.) 16/24 is. The younger the characters are, the bigger the relative gap each year is.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#3: Jun 3rd 2011 at 8:00:02 AM

Also, how is this different from May–December Romance?

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#4: Jun 3rd 2011 at 8:04:38 AM

[up][up]I remember, when I was a teen, discussing a mathematical formula in which you could figure out what would count as an upper bound for a partner's age before it would be weird to pursue them. I wish I remember... being of an age where it was a concern was so long ago.

[up]I think this trope is simply about characters who lust after someone significantly older, regardless of whether or not they end up in a relationship with said older person. Though the suggestion of Trope Decay implicit in your question is quite valid.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#5: Jun 3rd 2011 at 9:28:48 AM

It's not a May–December Romance the same way Mrs. Robinson isn't. It's not the relationship, it's the character.

And a inversion, where the older woman is pursuing much younger men is Mrs. Robinson

DoKnowButchie from San Juan, Puerto Rico. Since: Jan, 2001
#6: Jun 3rd 2011 at 10:36:02 AM

As far as the age difference goes, I agree that 16/18 isn't an example. But it's impossible to set an "X number of years difference" standard because it really depends on the ages of the people involved. As the Star Wars examples says, 30/35 isn't a big deal, but 9/14 IS. (It also doesn't help that Natalie Portman was clearly NOT 14 when she played the role, whereas Jake Lloyd was 10.) 16/24 is. The younger the characters are, the bigger the relative gap each year is.

So you're saying some version of the "half your age plus seven" rule (where, the age different is objectionably creepy when the younger person's age is less than half the older person's age plus seven) should be implemented? I could go for that.

Avatar art by Lorna-Ka.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#7: Jun 3rd 2011 at 10:42:31 AM

I could agree with that, sans the assumption that it's "creepy" if the age difference is greater. I'd really prefer to see some sort of lower bounds on the ages of the people involved, as well, ("It's not a May–December Romance if they're both under 25" or something like that) but that's not really feasible, I think.

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#8: Jun 3rd 2011 at 11:05:04 AM

[up][up]Half the elder party's age plus seven? That's the rule I was trying to remember, thanks.

Maybe it ought to be a reference to romantically/sexually desiring someone at least one age category older (defining the categories as pre-adolescent, adolescent, young adult, adult, middle-aged, elderly).

edited 3rd Jun '11 11:05:15 AM by 32_Footsteps

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#9: Jun 3rd 2011 at 1:41:32 PM

I'm going to support the proposition that the name is pretty bad. It's dependent on knowing the meaning of another trope name that itself is fairly opaque, which, in my opinion, is one level of non-indicativeness too far.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#10: Jun 3rd 2011 at 2:58:01 PM

Wow, after all this time no one noticed the article link was broken yet? Fixed. 32 Footsteps, for future reference, you don't need to put a space in article you are linking. Use as a WikiWord

Andrew Since: Jan, 2001
#11: Jun 3rd 2011 at 4:06:48 PM

This desperately calls for a re-name. There's no reason a concept like "young man likes older women" needs to have a name that's specific to the Japanese culture.

Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#12: Jun 3rd 2011 at 4:22:10 PM

Maybe it ought to be a reference to romantically/sexually desiring someone at least one age category older (defining the categories as pre-adolescent, adolescent, young adult, adult, middle-aged, elderly).

I don't think any category under "adult" (in terms of the target) should count at all.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#13: Jun 3rd 2011 at 4:25:05 PM

^ What about a 20something kid (technically an adult) that likes women twenty years older than he is?

The trope this is based off of had its own problems, anyway. People seem to think it means any woman 25 or older (and occasionally younger) who is unmarried regardless of their opinion about it. I wouldn't be against renaming.

SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#14: Jun 3rd 2011 at 4:28:05 PM

Christmas Cake has a fairly specific meaning, so if there is confusion about the age range for this trope, then the name is really, really wrong.

NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
#15: Jun 3rd 2011 at 5:12:13 PM

I don't really know what kind of name would be good for this. I mean, I've seen tons of examples of younger men who go after women significantly older, like Mizuro from Bleach, but I don't think there's an actual term for it like there is for the inverse: an older woman who seduces younger men (a Cougar or Mrs. Robinson).

Likes Older Woman is probably the closest I can think of. Usually their justification is they like them "experienced" If You Know What I Mean.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
peccantis Since: Oct, 2010
#17: Jun 27th 2011 at 3:58:53 AM

"Cake Eater" could be any man in a context where Christmas Cake is a thing, who goes for them, so if this is supposed to also include Cougar Prey and any other type of males going for significantly older females, it really needs a rename.

edited 27th Jun '11 3:59:05 AM by peccantis

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#18: Jun 27th 2011 at 4:22:30 AM

Personally I think "Cake Eater" is just a bit too narrow for the trope name (Cake eater go after the unmarried desperate types, uptight Hot Librarian or Office Lady types or ones who have just given up aka Christmas Cake many many many hentai books cover this.) it would be a subtrope to this Cougar Lover MILF Lover or ( Chaser at the end like Chubby Chaser.)

edited 27th Jun '11 5:01:11 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#19: Jun 27th 2011 at 7:41:57 AM

Cougar Prey can be any young man, since a cougar goes for younger men. Cougar Hunter sounds more like a guy who looks for Cougars.

Kalle (Don’t ask)
#20: Jun 28th 2011 at 8:39:36 AM

I don't know if this is off-topic or not, but it says in the article that this is specifically about men with a preference for older women — what's the Gender Flipped version of this trope, then, out of curiosity?

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#21: Jun 28th 2011 at 8:52:37 AM

[up] There is a term for that in Negima Oji-con (Old Man Complex). Asuna in Negima is a rather large Oji Con (she likes them "Dandy") and her rival is a Shotacon and boy do they fight. [1]

Is there enough for an actual trope? I dont know.

edited 28th Jun '11 8:59:29 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#22: Jun 30th 2011 at 6:11:35 PM

[up][up]I don't think there's an exact term for the gender flipped version... of course, I don't think there's a term for the one actually described. I can't think of too many examples of the gender flipped one in fiction, though (Masako of Bunny Drop is the only one I can think of). I can think of a couple of arguable Real Life examples, but the accusations of actually being a Gold Digger instead suggest to me that RL examples might not be the best idea.

[up][up][up]Cougar Hunter might work... although I don't know if that still runs into the I Thought It Meant Exactly What It Says on the Tin issue.

Ugh... I know there's a valid trope in here, but it's getting to be a mess.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#23: Jun 30th 2011 at 6:40:36 PM

I can't, off-hand, think of any examples in fiction of young men who regularly pursued older women who weren't written with heavy doses of Gold Digger or Gigolo.

GiantSpaceChinchilla Since: Oct, 2009
#24: Jun 30th 2011 at 11:05:44 PM

I can't, off-hand, think of any examples in fiction of young men who regularly pursued older women who weren't written with heavy doses of Gold Digger or Gigolo.

I remember something like that in Intergenerational Friendship, which pops up in this trope sometimes after adaption distillation, word of god, Fridge logic, etc. but didn't find it.

also half the age of one affectionardit + seven, seems off at really young ages such as when they're both 14 or really old ages such as when the age diffrence is greater than 21 such as 86 and 50. so perhaps cake eater could be redefined as between 100 and 14?

I'm not sure if arbitrary age ranges really does anything to help the wiki though.

hope that helps

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#25: Jul 1st 2011 at 8:12:32 AM

[up][up]Most of the examples I can think of that aren't gigolos or the male version of a Gold Digger are based in anime. That said, I think a few of the examples in Hot for Teacher would fit there, and I think Finch from American Pie counts. Cross-referencing those who desire Stacy's Mom in general would work.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

PageAction: CakeEater
27th Oct '11 9:59:21 AM

Crown Description:

What would be the best way to fix the page?

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