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Race- Privilege, Relations, Racism, etc.

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First thing's first: KEEP. THIS. SHIT. CIVIL. If you can't talk about race without resorting to childish insults and rude generalizations or getting angry at people who don't see it your way, leave the thread.

With that said, I bring you to what can hopefully be the general thread about race.

First, a few starter questions.

  • How, if at all, do you feel your race affects your everyday life?
  • Do you believe that white people (or whatever the majority race in your area is) receive privileges simply because of the color of their skin. How much?
    • Do you believe minorities are discriminated against for the same reason? How much?
  • Do you believe that assimilation of cultures is better than people trying to keep their own?
  • Affirmative Action. Yea, Nay? Why or why not?

Also, a personal question from me.

  • Why (in my experience, not trying to generalize) do white people often try to insist that they aren't white? I can't count the number of times I've heard "I'm not white, I'm 1/4th English, 1/4th German, 1/4th Scandinavian 1/8th Cherokee, and 1/8th Russian," as though 4 of 5 of those things aren't considered "white" by the masses. Is it because you have pride for your ancestry, or an attempt to try and differentiate yourself from all those "other" white people? Or something else altogether?

edited 30th May '11 9:16:04 PM by Wulf

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#10551: Apr 5th 2016 at 1:48:29 PM

[up]

I think it can happen to white males the same way.

It can happen if you have a particular accent...

edited 5th Apr '16 1:49:09 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#10552: Apr 5th 2016 at 4:03:11 PM

Is there a difference between stereotypes and a meaningful ethnicity?

I'd say that the only real difference is that people aren't usually proud of stereotypes.

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#10553: Apr 5th 2016 at 4:08:03 PM

A stereotype is how people expect people of a certain ethnicity to act/be like. An ethnicity is a group defined by their phenotype, culture, etc.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#10554: Apr 5th 2016 at 4:41:44 PM

Ethnicity is a group unified by heritage, culture, nation, and/or language.

A stereotype is a simplified assumption of the behaviors people of said ethnicity, or any other such grouping. They may or may not have some basis in truth, but they are always oversimplified.

garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#10555: Apr 5th 2016 at 6:59:36 PM

So if the difference is just that people like ethnicity but don't like stereotypes, I'm not sure if that's meaningful.

So, if we're talking about my ethnicity, my shared traditions etc, isn't that a short cut for predicting my beliefs and behaviors?

In other words, other than the fact I like my ethnic meaning and don't like my stereotypical meaning, is there a functional difference.

All of my experience with proud ethnicities says no.

Culture, language and phenotype seem, just as much as a stereotype, to let other people predicting my behavior.

edited 5th Apr '16 7:01:39 PM by garridob

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#10556: Apr 5th 2016 at 7:09:42 PM

An ethnicty is an actual thing. If it helps you, think about it in terms of the phenotype (although there's more to it than that). Stereotypes are ideas people have about these groups. They can change with time, but the ethnicity will still exist and be what it is regardless of the perception of those people. Like, if the stereotype about asian people doing well academically changed, the asian ethnicity would still exist.

war877 Grr... <3 from Untamed Wilds Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Grr... <3
#10557: Apr 5th 2016 at 7:10:46 PM

^^Well there is also laudatory stereotypes that some people take for granted or just don't notice but benefit from, since people look past stuff that benefits them but dwell on stuff that harms them.

I actually assumed that the above is the original meaning of white privilege, the unnoticed laudatory stereotypes that propel white males in north america to financial and social success.

Personally, I don't see what cultural stereotypes have to do with cultural identity. It is kind of like calling an image of a person the same thing as a person.

edited 5th Apr '16 7:11:18 PM by war877

garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#10558: Apr 6th 2016 at 1:36:07 AM

Untamed Wilds,

If white privilege is actually built from lauditory stereotypes, then we're rejecting my hypothesis that white is basically an empty descriptor. Where does this leave us and what are these lauditory stereotypes?

[up] [up] Wehrmacht,

I am going to have to disagree with you about ethnicities being real things. Asian is an identity group that North Americans invented, but it's every bit as much a social construct as a stereotype. For example, here in South Korea where I live, Asian is a concept that people understand, but it's absolutely not how they identify. Telling Korean people that they are in the same "Asian" category as the Chinese or, gasp, Vietnamese, is somewhere between mildly insulting and simply nonsense.

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#10559: Apr 6th 2016 at 2:20:57 AM

Well part of the problem here is that you're mixing ethnic group with continent of origin. Asian is not meant to designate what your ethnic background is but continent of origin/family origin. You're using something micro and making it macro.

The Blog The Art
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#10560: Apr 6th 2016 at 2:37:30 AM

[up][up]So, like Russians being offended they're compared to Portuguese?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#10561: Apr 6th 2016 at 2:40:21 AM

[up] Wot? Why would you even...

edited 6th Apr '16 2:40:29 AM by Luminosity

garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#10562: Apr 6th 2016 at 3:22:23 AM

[up][up][up]Mousa The 14,

I don't think I'm confusing the issue, or at least I'm not trying to. Wermacht explicitly used Asian as an example of an ethnic group in an attempt to demonstrate that ethnicity is real, while stereotypes aren't.

I'm perfectly willing to operate under her assumptions for the sake of discussion, but my actual perspective is that "Asian" is a social construct that really only makes sense in the context of North America.

I'm happy to discuss your concept of ethnicity as well, but I don't think you've articulated it yet.

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
Starbound2 Since: Jan, 2001
#10563: Apr 6th 2016 at 8:01:44 AM

[up] One of the major differences is participation, I feel.

Heritage and cultural aspects are (loosely) defined by those are participating within the ethnic group, with any shift in what defines those aspects being generated internally. Of note is that the cultural aspects, while acknowledged as being potentially typical, are not considered fixed and thus an individual who belongs to an ethnic group but lacks the cultural signifiers might be unusual, but not exceptionally so.

Stereotypes on the other hand are far more rigid and are defined, in the most part, by those existing outside of a given group, without necessarily the understanding that comes from being a member of said group. Hence why stereotypes invariably fall under oversimplification. This is far harder for members of a given ethnicity to change and influence; those who believe in stereotypes will (typically) simply see those who don't fall under that world view as "exceptions to the rule." You Are a Credit to Your Race, as it were.

edited 6th Apr '16 8:02:55 AM by Starbound2

Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#10564: Apr 6th 2016 at 8:10:31 AM

So, like Russians being offended they're compared to Portuguese?

And vice-versa (especially if it involves language and accent).

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#10565: Apr 6th 2016 at 8:22:35 AM

I am going to have to disagree with you about ethnicities being real things. Asian is an identity group that North Americans invented, but it's every bit as much a social construct as a stereotype. For example, here in South Korea where I live, Asian is a concept that people understand, but it's absolutely not how they identify. Telling Korean people that they are in the same "Asian" category as the Chinese or, gasp, Vietnamese, is somewhere between mildly insulting and simply nonsense

You misunderstood what I was saying.

I was using "asian" to describe where those people come from (east asia), not implying that it was one homogenous ethnicity (like Mousa said). Obviously those are all different, that was sort of my point, people assume stereotypes about people of all those separate and distinct ethnicities in a blanket way.

Starbound also covered some points up above that I probably should have articulated better.

edited 6th Apr '16 8:35:14 AM by wehrmacht

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#10566: Apr 6th 2016 at 8:29:31 AM

I am a white man but ethnically I am a Sephardi descendant from the New Christians, whether I should connect or not with this heritage is something I am struggling with, specially since it carries religious connotations.

Wehrmacht used Asian as you use European to describe someone who can come from Portugal to Finland or any other country in the European continent.

edited 6th Apr '16 8:31:28 AM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
war877 Grr... <3 from Untamed Wilds Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Grr... <3
#10567: Apr 6th 2016 at 2:17:32 PM

@garridob ...what are these lauditory stereotypes?

I have never researched this issue myself, but I imagine that a hiring agent would perceive a white male as "Honest, follows orders, friendly, professional, and reliable." This is all Effin' bull, but I wouldn't consider most employment screeners as competent.

edited 6th Apr '16 2:18:02 PM by war877

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#10568: Apr 6th 2016 at 2:20:46 PM

[up]

This is all Effin' bull, but I wouldn't consider most employment screeners as competent.

But isn't that because most are line managers, who don't do HR for a living?

Keep Rolling On
war877 Grr... <3 from Untamed Wilds Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Grr... <3
#10569: Apr 6th 2016 at 3:04:56 PM

[up]Yep. Or interns in first stage review.

garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#10570: Apr 6th 2016 at 4:28:01 PM

Untamed Wilds,

I think you can boil those lauditory stereotypes down even further to simply "not ethnic," which was kind of my point originally.

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#10571: Apr 6th 2016 at 4:34:11 PM

Wermacht,

I was trying to say that Asian is a real ethnicity but only in North America. In Asia, it's something else, hence ethnicity is just as much a social construct as a stereotype.

It seems like you're making ethnicity into phenotypes. Is that true? If not, I'm officially confused as to what you mean by ethnicity.

edited 6th Apr '16 4:42:13 PM by garridob

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#10572: Apr 6th 2016 at 4:39:34 PM

Angelus Nox,

Why would you want an ethnic heritage? I'm not being sarcastic. I've spent a lot of energy avoiding ethnic heritage in my life. I honestly don't understand why people want it.

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#10573: Apr 6th 2016 at 4:41:18 PM

The phenotype is usually a big part of ethnicity yes, but is not the only thing associated with it. There's a bunch of other things in there like traditions, language, etc. Like I said Starbound covered it pretty well, the main thing is that the culture of an ethnicity is defined loosely by its own members, while a stereotype is an inflexible idea other people hold about that ethnic group.

[up] Some people see it as an important part of their identity. For me the fact that my dad is peruvian didn't mean much to me when I was a kid but is something I would enjoy connecting with on a deeper level now.

edited 6th Apr '16 4:44:01 PM by wehrmacht

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#10574: Apr 6th 2016 at 4:41:59 PM

I... don't understand how you can avoid ethnic heritage. Where your ancestors are from is where your ancestors are from.

i'm tired, my friend
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#10575: Apr 6th 2016 at 4:46:49 PM

[up]x3, 4, 5

By the way you can combine your posts and use arrows or @name notation to respond to individual posts instead of triple posting.


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