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Race- Privilege, Relations, Racism, etc.

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First thing's first: KEEP. THIS. SHIT. CIVIL. If you can't talk about race without resorting to childish insults and rude generalizations or getting angry at people who don't see it your way, leave the thread.

With that said, I bring you to what can hopefully be the general thread about race.

First, a few starter questions.

  • How, if at all, do you feel your race affects your everyday life?
  • Do you believe that white people (or whatever the majority race in your area is) receive privileges simply because of the color of their skin. How much?
    • Do you believe minorities are discriminated against for the same reason? How much?
  • Do you believe that assimilation of cultures is better than people trying to keep their own?
  • Affirmative Action. Yea, Nay? Why or why not?

Also, a personal question from me.

  • Why (in my experience, not trying to generalize) do white people often try to insist that they aren't white? I can't count the number of times I've heard "I'm not white, I'm 1/4th English, 1/4th German, 1/4th Scandinavian 1/8th Cherokee, and 1/8th Russian," as though 4 of 5 of those things aren't considered "white" by the masses. Is it because you have pride for your ancestry, or an attempt to try and differentiate yourself from all those "other" white people? Or something else altogether?

edited 30th May '11 9:16:04 PM by Wulf

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#10526: Apr 4th 2016 at 4:51:58 PM

Re:Cultural appropriation, I'm basically with Jovian on this one. It's important to emphasize though, that this is a bit of a delicate subject with a lot of gray areas. For example I believe Imca's stated that she doesn't care about non-japanese people wearing kimonos because she sees it as people paying respect to her culture and not in any way besmirching it.
See, simply wearing a piece of clothing from a specific culture I wouldn't consider "appropriation" in the negative sense at all. Or rather, I think using an element of some culture without being a member of that culture is perfectly okay as long as you do it appropriately for that culture. To continue the kimono example, wearing a kimono even if you're not Japanese is fine, as long as you wear it the right way. I don't recall the details, but I know that a kimono is normally put on a specific way, and putting it on a different way is only done when preparing a body for a funeral — so it's possible for an uninformed person wearing a kimono to accidentally dress themselves like a corpse. That's a fairly minor example, but you get the point.

Basically, cultural appropriation is only a thing when: 1) It comes from a culture other than your own (eg, the Piss Christ thing doesn't count, because it's from a guy who's part of a primarily Christian culture). If it comes from your own culture then it's just social commentary, not cultural appropriation. 2) It's done in a way that's not appropriate to that culture (wearing a kimono wrong, wearing something like a Native American headdress that conveys status that you're not entitled to, etc). And/or 3) you refuse to acknowledge that it came from another culture in the first place (claiming something as an original innovation on your part when it's actually inspired by, if not straight copied from, another culture).

In other words, it's fine to use things from other cultures as long as you do it right (by the standards of that culture) and you acknowledge the other culture rather than claiming you came up with it yourself.

edited 4th Apr '16 4:52:17 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Imca (Veteran)
#10527: Apr 4th 2016 at 4:56:18 PM

I honestly dont have much of an oppinion on it due to the fact that dispite my girlfriend being Cathlioc my knowladge of actual religion is passing at best.

But I think that is probaly not a topic for this thread, sorry.

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#10528: Apr 4th 2016 at 4:56:46 PM

My reply is on skirts though

Oh sorry I completely misread your post/the situation since I went through it kinda quickly, so my post ended up more or less being a complete non-sequitur. My bad, that was a huge derp on my part.

Anyways, I would have to agree with you that obviously you shouldn't care about whether people are offended about whether you wear a skirt or not in general, but I think Quag was making more of a general point about wearing or doing certain things in a specific time or place just because, though I think he's since admitted that the skirt thing was a poor example to begin with. You might as well ask why you would even bother going to a church at that point.

On Anime Catholicism: Japan in general has a...questionable track record with portraying organized religion. They're not particularly concerned with getting it accurate most of the time. They're pretty good about talking about their own spirituality, but not necessarily other people's. There are some exceptions to that like Kids on the Slope which AFAIK has a pretty accurate portrayal of catholicism, but I don't see them that often.

edited 4th Apr '16 5:09:01 PM by wehrmacht

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#10529: Apr 4th 2016 at 5:04:15 PM

I used Piss Christ as an example of someone being purposively disrespectful so someone else's culture and faith and getting away with it than cultural appropriation though.

Inter arma enim silent leges
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#10530: Apr 4th 2016 at 5:13:14 PM

I wouldn't consider Piss Christ an example of cultural appropriation, if for no other reason than it's his own culture. The guy who made it was raised Roman Catholic and identifies as Christian. Even if he wasn't actually a member of the religion itself, though, I'd argue that just being American (which is predominantly Christian) would still qualify him as being part of that culture.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#10531: Apr 4th 2016 at 5:16:04 PM

Yeah, Serrano is not an appropriator. Only an artist who's no different from Lady Gaga (right down to their culturally-inspired Catholicism), when it comes to using religious motifs and visual elements in order to provoke and shock people.

edited 4th Apr '16 5:17:29 PM by Quag15

SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#10532: Apr 4th 2016 at 5:42:18 PM

When it comes to cultural appropriation, you also have to consider social power and privilege. Let's take a Native American headdress, for example. When people wear it because it "looks cool", it removes the greater significance of it. It makes it a costume. A fashion statement. and like fashions, one that can go "out of style." Especially how many do consider Native Americans to be history, or otherwise unimportant.

You don't even have to be stereotyping. Appropriation is also just removing the people, history, and culture from it.

edited 4th Apr '16 5:44:58 PM by SilentColossus

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#10533: Apr 4th 2016 at 6:21:31 PM

it's possible for an uninformed person wearing a kimono to accidentally dress themselves like a corpse.
... if you wear it that way for Halloween, is it more appropriate if you also wear zombie makeup?

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#10534: Apr 4th 2016 at 6:51:00 PM

Personal feeling =/= communitarian decision
Again, private property held by a single individual person is different from a property that is used by a given group/denomination/ethno-religious community.
How so? Sounds like collectivism.

Your feelings are not more valid because more people happen to share it.

To use a different analogy you're going to a night club on a day where you have to wear a specific outfit, as laid out in their program/rules. You show up with different clothes. The bouncer has the power to not let you in.
They sure do. And I don't go to such places. Precisely because I can't stand dress codes. Why would I want to give them my money?

edited 4th Apr '16 6:51:19 PM by Antiteilchen

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#10535: Apr 4th 2016 at 7:01:55 PM

I honestly fail to see a meaningful distinction between aggravating someone for "cultural appropriation" of a garment or hairstyle, and self-righteously dictating that their melanin content prohibits them from using such garments or hairstyle. But I am panamanian, where native culture was used as basis for new local christian traditions of the colonists and the slaves, who developed their own cultural practices as well. The panamenian "Pollera de Gala" is a piece of Spanish regular women wear turned into an ostentatious peice of formal wear, and it's usually associated with the mestizo's and whites, but we don't ask blacks and natives not to dress in it, quite contrary, we revel in its folkloric significance. There's also the Congos(from the african-slaves culture), who also have a pollera. The mola, a piece of blouse cloth, of the guna people should only be worn by them? Even when they sell it themselves?,Should we all pay the chinese a royalty for every firework we use in our own cultural traditions?

garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#10536: Apr 4th 2016 at 7:43:31 PM

I identify as white. I've been thinking a lot about white privilege and I've decided some basic things:

1. I really like having it. 2. It's something I can lose and, in fact, I've lost and regained it during my life. 3. It's related to skin color, but only vaguely.

I would really, really like to have an honest conversation about white privilege if anybody is interested.

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#10537: Apr 4th 2016 at 7:44:02 PM

Can we uh, discuss the ethnic tensions between the different people in Eastern Europe?

Know-age Since: May, 2010
#10538: Apr 4th 2016 at 8:52:58 PM

[up][up] sounds interesting, care to expand?

garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#10539: Apr 4th 2016 at 9:10:19 PM

So, to me, white privilege is the ability to go almost anywhere without other people knowing how I'll behave.

It's not weird for a white person to be a criminal, an artist, a bodybuilder, a dancer, gay or straight, conservative or liberal, an accountant, a writer or anything else. White is default, it's an amorphous blob of nothing. I literally can't conceive of a way I could sellout the white race.

On the other hand, my observations of proud minority groups make me think black or Native American labels mean a lot. There are lots of ways for black kids to sellout. There are tons of ways to be a vial traitor to your tribe.

So, how to lose white privilege- looking poor does the trick. At that point you join a race known as white trash, and that identity means many, many things.

I'd also say that it's harder to have white privilege if you're dark skinned, but definitely not impossible. Neil deGrasse Tyson, I'd bet, gets a lot more white privilege than Vanilla Ice.

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#10540: Apr 4th 2016 at 9:25:13 PM

Well, I have the called White Privilege at home but I got "demoted" to person of colour according to some people as soon as I got into the United States because of this Trope: Latino Is Brown. Still I didn't feel discriminated, much by the contrary, I got better treatment from strangers than what I usually get at home.

The sheer irony was that out of all the people I've met in Baltimore only 4 got my nationality right and it was based on the accent rather than looks.

[down]Yup. Even though I don't speak a word in Spanish unless it already exists in Portuguese. Seriously watching my Argentine and Peruvian home mates speak Spanish was among the most confusing experiences I had.

edited 4th Apr '16 9:41:19 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#10541: Apr 4th 2016 at 9:27:09 PM

You mean, accent, hermano. Nosotros debemos estar unidos.

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#10542: Apr 4th 2016 at 10:23:46 PM

White privilege depends a lot on your phenotype and where you live. I'd probably be treated in much the same way Nox was during his stay abroad but compared to a lot of people here I'm relatively light-skinned so I get by on that even though strictly speaking I'm mixed race (my dad is Peruvian, my mother is a brazilian descendant of italian immigrants).

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#10543: Apr 5th 2016 at 12:35:41 AM

Yeah, In my case I having a hard time considering Brazil part of latin america because of the langauge issue, the fact Brazil is so godamn huge is another thing around.

Abotu whiteness....yeah, I have seen something strange on it: in the film diversity thread said that seen white have over exposure in media, having white people play other white people from other country is not a big deal, which make thing in how even a steriotype(that all white people are the same) dosen have the same meaing, with minority you have to be correct in their identity and damn you if you not, with White is all a unified block, a "Western" civilization and yet it barely damage them.

And with White being a big pile of nothing....is because before of it, there was white pride and that have taken quite a beaten, the sins of imperalism, the horror of KKK and South or the Nazi make the idea of white being superor laughable at best or downright demoic at worst, so instead white is redefined as normal, much exotism Star with Culture cringe "grass is greener out there" all cultures look good when yours look bland

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#10544: Apr 5th 2016 at 3:04:57 AM

That depends on what you mean by superior. If you mean in the sense of being nice, then yes, mockery made. If you mean it in the sense powerful, well I'm not sure.

Regardless, though, do you accept my hypothesis that making white meaningless is a big advantage for white people?

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#10545: Apr 5th 2016 at 3:45:48 AM

[up]In the sense that a heterosexual, middle class white man is considered the default for most products in the West? Yeah, I'm inclined to lean that way myself, although this is strictly from one outsider's point of view, namely a Malaysian Chinese.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#10546: Apr 5th 2016 at 4:17:14 AM

You've pretty much covered it exactly, Krieger.

So yeah in that sense the hypothesis is correct. Basically by making white meaningless it becomes the assumed default of humanity and everyone is considered "different" and "not normal"

The Blog The Art
garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#10547: Apr 5th 2016 at 5:40:19 AM

If you accept my hypothesis, would you also agree that joining the kkk or neo Nazis would be , by giving whiteness meaning, effectively a renunciation of white privilege?

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#10548: Apr 5th 2016 at 5:54:34 AM

Publically, probably. But really those are more like means of trying to maintain how things are with the added caveat of actively putting other ethnicities down.

It's more like aggressively making white the perceived norm rather than just letting what society has already done.

The Blog The Art
garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#10549: Apr 5th 2016 at 6:51:02 AM

I completely agree about the intent of a group like the KKK. What I meant though was more along the lines of voluntarily turning away from the privilege part of white privilege. As I experience white privilege, it's mostly freedom FROM racial meaning. If I were to, say, tattoo a swastika on my face, I that freedom isn't just gone, I've taken it to the shed out back, shot it between the eyes and lit the body on fire.

Let me explain where I'm coming from here. I could get away with identifying as Hispanic if I wanted, but I don't want to (at least not while I'm in the US). The reason I don't want to is because Hispanic means something to Americans.

I mostly live in South Korea, where "white privilege" is something Korean people have. Being ethnically Korean in Korea is pretty much meaningless. Being ethnically white, is not meaningless. I'm supposed to be unable to handle spicy food, unable to speak the language, here to seduce ALL THE WOMEN FOLK, prickly about "my rights" in ways that make no damn sense in Korea. On the other hand, I'm supposed to be cool in an edgy sort of way, I'm supposed to be athletic and I'm supposed to be musical.

I can't reasonably pass for Korean and get my "white" privilege back, but I can subvert every single one of those meanings every time I meet a new person - which is almost as good. Damned straight I order the spicy kimchi, assure everyone I'd prefer to conduct our discussions in Korean, quick to explain I don't take "rights" seriously and sure to make it known that while I am interested in seducing the women folk, I'm interested in doing so with a mind towards settling down and making a family. I try to be cool, but self-consciously not in the edgy way my ethnicity means. I try to be athletic, but not in the ways I'm supposed to be and you won't catch me dancing.

Why? Because I don't want an ethnicity.

edited 5th Apr '16 6:59:37 AM by garridob

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
war877 Grr... <3 from Untamed Wilds Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Grr... <3
#10550: Apr 5th 2016 at 1:46:36 PM

This sounds to me less like white privilege and more like standard stereotyping. If you don't look like most of the locals, you get a stereotype pack.

I think it can happen to white males the same way.


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