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Race- Privilege, Relations, Racism, etc.

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First thing's first: KEEP. THIS. SHIT. CIVIL. If you can't talk about race without resorting to childish insults and rude generalizations or getting angry at people who don't see it your way, leave the thread.

With that said, I bring you to what can hopefully be the general thread about race.

First, a few starter questions.

  • How, if at all, do you feel your race affects your everyday life?
  • Do you believe that white people (or whatever the majority race in your area is) receive privileges simply because of the color of their skin. How much?
    • Do you believe minorities are discriminated against for the same reason? How much?
  • Do you believe that assimilation of cultures is better than people trying to keep their own?
  • Affirmative Action. Yea, Nay? Why or why not?

Also, a personal question from me.

  • Why (in my experience, not trying to generalize) do white people often try to insist that they aren't white? I can't count the number of times I've heard "I'm not white, I'm 1/4th English, 1/4th German, 1/4th Scandinavian 1/8th Cherokee, and 1/8th Russian," as though 4 of 5 of those things aren't considered "white" by the masses. Is it because you have pride for your ancestry, or an attempt to try and differentiate yourself from all those "other" white people? Or something else altogether?

edited 30th May '11 9:16:04 PM by Wulf

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#10476: Apr 2nd 2016 at 2:28:29 PM

So we all stole the look from Indians?

But yeah, no shit a look like that emerges naturally from early civilisation. I didn't read the full thing but I found the comment from one women about her having issues due to have dreads interest, specifically that she gets approached for drugs by strangers on the street. Doesn't that happen to everyone? I'm a blonde white guy who normally wears waistcoats/longocasts and I get approached for/offered drugs often enough that it's become a running joke.

edited 2nd Apr '16 2:50:20 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#10477: Apr 2nd 2016 at 2:34:21 PM

I've never been approached for drugs. I feel left out.

[down] When I tried a trenchcoat, I've been called Michael Jackson. To this day I'm not sure why. The coat isn't even white.

edited 2nd Apr '16 3:39:57 PM by Luminosity

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#10478: Apr 2nd 2016 at 3:38:20 PM

Lucky you, the first time I tried a leather trenchcoat I got asked if I was going to shoot a school by a passerby.

Inter arma enim silent leges
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#10479: Apr 2nd 2016 at 3:46:13 PM

[up][up] My brother's girlfriend and her friend got kicked out of a store once because some elitist prick and his wife claimed they were trying to steal something. Why? Because she has dreadlocks and some people think that makes you poor/a criminal. They said she was obviously too poor to brush her hair.

[up] Clothing and how people react to it probably deserves its own topic.

edited 2nd Apr '16 3:47:23 PM by DrunkenNordmann

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#10480: Apr 2nd 2016 at 3:50:06 PM

Ask, and ye shall receive a link.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#10481: Apr 4th 2016 at 9:22:35 AM

I don't think I understand the problem with cultural appropriation. Sure, dressing as another culture at halloween furthers stereotypes and is othering them. But that is a problem with stereotyping and othering, not with using stuff from a different culture per se.

How does using a haircut, symbol or dress in a different way, stop the original people from using it in their way? Like, where is the actual harm done?

MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#10482: Apr 4th 2016 at 9:28:27 AM

re: That video, I heard that it only caught the tail end of an interaction, after white dude had already insulted and aggravated the girl.

Read my stories!
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#10483: Apr 4th 2016 at 9:34:26 AM

This is my favorite resource on the matter. The line is usually more clear when it comes to culturally sacred symbols and practices.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#10484: Apr 4th 2016 at 9:45:19 AM

[up][up] That's still no reason to assault the guy, even if he was being insulting. Also I don't see how him being insulting justifies bullshit like trying to claim that a universal hairstyle belongs to one specific cultural group.

edited 4th Apr '16 9:46:30 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#10485: Apr 4th 2016 at 9:47:40 AM

[up][up]I already read that. And some stuff on other sides. I still don't get it.

Just because some people hold something "sacred" doesn't mean others have to as well. You don't get to decide what other people should hold sacred.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#10486: Apr 4th 2016 at 10:14:58 AM

Yes, but the question isn't whether or not you hold that thing sacred or not, it's whether you respect the other culture enough to respect the fact that they hold it sacred. If you take someone's sacred tradition and treat it like crap, then they're entirely justified in saying "hey, it pisses us off when you treat our sacred traditions like crap". If your response is "well, why should I care? It's not my sacred tradition", then you're basically saying that you don't give a shit what they think.

This is considered disrespectful for obvious reasons.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#10487: Apr 4th 2016 at 10:29:59 AM

Also there's a difference between taking someone else's idea and developing your own idea based off their idea, you're going to see a lot less issues if you do something transformative with another culture's idea then if you simply copy it and change the meaning.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Imca (Veteran)
#10488: Apr 4th 2016 at 11:12:39 AM

The later is a precourser step of the former though.

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#10489: Apr 4th 2016 at 11:20:12 AM

It is pretty hard to copy something and change its meaning to present itself as something other group made but it is stolen from another culture or religious practice without anyone noticing or taking objection to it, specially if you're trying to introduce something foreign to a culture that doesn't accept foreign things very well or if the introduced thing is already known as being foreign.

As far as I've seen it is usually with jewelries or clothing that use cuts and patterns inspired in other cultures. It is like getting a tiara that uses chains and a jewel on your forehead and calling it a bindi because the designs were inspired by bindies even though they are a loose adaptation of what a bindi really is, but no one really tries to call them Stirn Juwel or front bijou.

Cuisine is another thing, every culture does adaptations of dishes from other cultures, hell I've seasoned a fresh fillet steak with tare sauce on a grill during a barbecue, even though I know I am not supposed to use tare on a steak.

It is really hard to measure cultural appropriation, as it implies active malice by the appropriators and most of the times we see either ignorance about some subject or another, foreign fetishism or adapting something foreign with local more available resources.

edited 4th Apr '16 11:23:30 AM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#10490: Apr 4th 2016 at 11:21:48 AM

I try to accept that cultural appropriation is a legit thing, but with cases like this, it becomes progressively more difficult to treat it seriously.

On paper, yeah. It sucks when one culture gets credit for what originated in another(Elvis over black musicians he copied, white rappers over black rappers, etc) and it sucks that a white person expressing a different culture is trusted more than a minority expressing their own culture.

But goddamn, people are being absuive dicks with this.

[down] He did and massive kudos to him for that, but he still got immortalized and they got barely an acknowlengment. It's not his fault, it's a symptom of an issue.

edited 4th Apr '16 11:28:43 AM by Luminosity

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#10491: Apr 4th 2016 at 11:26:00 AM

To be fair with Elvis he never denied the black artists influence in his work during his career and often used his success to prop other black artists in public during his shows and interviews.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#10492: Apr 4th 2016 at 2:08:47 PM

If your response is "well, why should I care? It's not my sacred tradition", then you're basically saying that you don't give a shit what they think
Erm... Why should I give a shit? Unless there is harm done by my actions (like stereotyping, othering, robbing them from opportunities), I don't see why their feelings of my actions should trump mine.

On paper, yeah. It sucks when one culture gets credit for what originated in another(Elvis over black musicians he copied, white rappers over black rappers, etc) and it sucks that a white person expressing a different culture is trusted more than a minority expressing their own culture
But how does disallowing the majority to use the minorities stuff, help the minority?

Like, how does white people not wearing afros, improve society's treatment of black people who do?

What exactly is the goal of discouraging not using other's ideas?

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#10493: Apr 4th 2016 at 2:23:43 PM

Generally dealing with appropriation shouldn't mean banning people using an idea, it should be about ensuring that the origins of things are given proper credit and respect.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#10494: Apr 4th 2016 at 2:28:05 PM

And we see much of the former than the latter nowadays when dealing with cultural appropriation.

Inter arma enim silent leges
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#10495: Apr 4th 2016 at 2:29:40 PM

Erm... Why should I give a shit?
Basic human decency? Empathy for your fellow man? If something upsets someone, then you shouldn't do it without a pressing reason to. "I think it's kinda cool" isn't a pressing reason.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#10496: Apr 4th 2016 at 2:32:53 PM

So if people are upset that I have gay sex I should stop?

I only need to stop if what upsets people harms someone. If it doesn't do any harm, it's they who're wrong.

Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#10497: Apr 4th 2016 at 2:38:29 PM

[up]So, you would have sex inside a church, a mosque or in the middle of a Sun Dance, just for shits and giggles?

[down]Yes, I know. I exaggerated (a bit too much, looking back in retrospective) for the sake of driving a point about not interfering with someone's beliefs and religious/cultural practices in their space by doing improper things (which doesn't have to include sex, naturally) that kinda ruin their whole point or their mood.

edited 4th Apr '16 2:53:23 PM by Quag15

Imca (Veteran)
#10498: Apr 4th 2016 at 2:42:35 PM

[up] Thats not the same, because people complain about cultural apropriation just from people doing it.

[up][up] Sums up the comparision pretty well actualy.

If you tried doing something shitty at an actual cultural festival I doubt many people would defend you, even those that think cultural appropriation is bullshit.

edited 4th Apr '16 2:43:45 PM by Imca

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#10499: Apr 4th 2016 at 2:46:31 PM

I'm not sure if you're genuinely asking for clarification or deliberately being dense, but I'm not up for a pedantic back-and-forth discussion about what constitutes acceptable limits regarding behavior that other people find upsetting, so I'm going to try to cover this all in one post and then I'm moving on.

1) The context of the comment I made was regarding cultural appropriation. Things like "wearing a Native American headdress when you're not entitled to do so by the rules of that culture", not things like "being gay".

2) I said that you shouldn't do it without a pressing reason, not that you shouldn't do it at all ever for any reason. Expressing your sexual identity (ie, having gay sex because you're gay) certainly counts as a pressing reason and I wouldn't expect anyone to refrain from such just because the act offends somebody, somewhere.

3) It's generally considered good form to respect other people's beliefs and cultures. Cultural appropriation (of the "using elements of another culture, but doing so in a way that's improper or offensive by the standards of that culture" sense) is generally disrespectful. Being disrespectful without a good reason generally makes you kind of a jerk. The upshot is "don't engage in cultural appropriation, it makes you a jerk".

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#10500: Apr 4th 2016 at 2:56:32 PM

Okay, gay sex was a bad example.

Say I want to wear a skirt just because I like its look. People get upset. Should I stop? My reason is simply "I think it's kinda cool".

It's generally considered good form to respect other people's beliefs and cultures
Well. Then I'm a proud jerk.

edited 4th Apr '16 3:05:42 PM by Antiteilchen


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