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Race- Privilege, Relations, Racism, etc.

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First thing's first: KEEP. THIS. SHIT. CIVIL. If you can't talk about race without resorting to childish insults and rude generalizations or getting angry at people who don't see it your way, leave the thread.

With that said, I bring you to what can hopefully be the general thread about race.

First, a few starter questions.

  • How, if at all, do you feel your race affects your everyday life?
  • Do you believe that white people (or whatever the majority race in your area is) receive privileges simply because of the color of their skin. How much?
    • Do you believe minorities are discriminated against for the same reason? How much?
  • Do you believe that assimilation of cultures is better than people trying to keep their own?
  • Affirmative Action. Yea, Nay? Why or why not?

Also, a personal question from me.

  • Why (in my experience, not trying to generalize) do white people often try to insist that they aren't white? I can't count the number of times I've heard "I'm not white, I'm 1/4th English, 1/4th German, 1/4th Scandinavian 1/8th Cherokee, and 1/8th Russian," as though 4 of 5 of those things aren't considered "white" by the masses. Is it because you have pride for your ancestry, or an attempt to try and differentiate yourself from all those "other" white people? Or something else altogether?

edited 30th May '11 9:16:04 PM by Wulf

Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#10176: Jan 24th 2016 at 2:22:01 PM

@Nox: Interesting and nicely put [tup]

[up][up][up]*has a doc with notes on a superhero setting, but hasn't written anything yet* Ooohhh, I'm gonna take a look at that.

[up][up]That's another thing that comes to my mind with this subject... Using the infinite monkey theorem as an example, anyone can independently create any cultural artifact without any input from the original whatsover (in theory). So someone could by themselves use a simple patterns or styles that just so happens to have a meaning in another culture, such as the mohawk.

[up]I wonder how many people would go "you're wearing a Bindi!" "no, I'm n-" "unnaacceptaaaAAAAAble!!!" Of course, that's their issue, but still...

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#10177: Jan 24th 2016 at 2:49:33 PM

I mean, it's not that hard to put a short message on your facebook photo of you in a kimono saying "This was a gift from so an so"

So a person should be considered guilty until proven innocent when it comes to cultural appropriation? That's some grade A bullshit.

Even if it is normally given as a gift, one culture doesn't have control over what fashion is worn, a person should be able to buy themselves a cool looking bit of clothing from another culture without being assumed to be a racist.

It's not appropriating unless you claim it belongs to your culture now, or try and override it's meaning in its native culture. So you can't claim to be using a cultural thing if it's got to be earned and you haven't earned it, but you can still have something inspired by it or that draws from the original. I don't know the cultural rules behind the kimono specifically, so I can't comment on it more.

As for the example given, the problem with "applying yellowface and then getting wasted at a Halloween party" is the whole "applying yellowface" bit, that's racist regardless of what you're wearing (unless they're some weird appropriate context situation like the British chimney sweeps blackface thing), the kimono is irrelevant, though it itself might be an issue depending on kimono and party context, same way wearing a British top hat to a party can be or any other wear tied to a particular culture.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#10178: Jan 24th 2016 at 3:32:27 PM

[up][up] It's happened before. There's been a series of posts on Tumblr by black bloggers complaining about being accused of appropriation for wearing traditional African forehead jewelry because they were mistaken for bindis. Or Chinese people wearing traditional forehead facepaint.

I've also seen native Hawaiian bloggers criticize the floral head crown meme on Tumblr as appropriation of the lei custom, which does have some significance in Hawaiian culture and shouldn't be treated as a mere fashion statement, anymore than claddagh rings should. But others have pointed out that floral crowns are also popular in Eastern Europe as well, and to accuse Eastern Europeans of appropriating Hawaiian culture for practicing their own culture, or people in general for using something that can't be monopolized by a single culture, is being unreasonable.

Of course, sometimes this is less a matter of liberal cultural sensitivity and more rightwing rhetoric disguising itself as the former, such as in the case of claiming another culture "stole" their practices in an effort to drum up nationalistic fervor. Reminds me of the claims from some hardline Korean nationalists that hanzi and dishes like zhajiangmian are actually Korean inventions which the Chinese appropriated as their own, something most mainline historians don't agree with.

[up][up][up] Yeah, when discussing cultural practices and the like, some people need to consider the possibility of a "convergent evolution"-like path where they independently happened to produce the same custom. Cultural sensitivity is extremely important, but I feel like a lot of the people criticizing cultural appropriation are kneejerk bandwagoners hopping on the newest sociological buzzword without putting in the time and effort to understand what it means, which causes problems for more serious discussion.

edited 24th Jan '16 3:58:23 PM by AlleyOop

murazrai Since: Jan, 2010
#10179: Jan 24th 2016 at 3:41:33 PM

Reading these conversations suddenly made the cultural conflicts between Malaysians and Indonesians a whole lot of new sense, since there was a controversy over Pendet dance, a dance of Indonesian origin used for a Malaysian tourism ad, to the point that there was a protest on the Malaysian embassy in Indonesia. Here's what I have known so far (feel free to correct me if I am wrong):

  • Songkok is thankfully out of this conflict, but in Malaysia there is a very racist belief that wearing one makes you a member of the Malay race. It has caused a member of a state legislature some trouble quite some years ago because of said member's refusal of wearing it despite being part of the standard attire.
  • One particular opinion claims that since that Malaysia and Indonesia was considered the Malay archipelago, with all the shared culture, until the invaders come, anything that exists back then should be considered as belonged to both cultures regardless of the actual place of origin. The Malaysians might be cool with this, but the Indonesians might not.

Any comments?

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#10180: Jan 24th 2016 at 4:05:55 PM

Fascinating.

I think the rule of thumb is that one does not get to kick down, culturally.

I mean, Tequila Tuesday. How is this still a thing?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#10181: Jan 24th 2016 at 4:14:57 PM

[up]Because people love having an excuse to binge drink Tequila, like they do with binge eating French Fries on the Fries Friday.

Inter arma enim silent leges
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#10182: Jan 24th 2016 at 4:21:10 PM

Yes but can't they do that without invoking a slew of condescending stereotypes? Why is it always mariachi hats?

Or the Latin Lover and Spicy Latina stereotypes. What the Hell is up with those?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#10184: Jan 24th 2016 at 6:21:52 PM

[up][up]Those two tropes are kinda our fault, our languages are called the Romance Language for a reason.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#10186: Jan 25th 2016 at 7:39:34 AM

KKK robe dropped off at a consignment store owned by a black woman.

I'm tempted to call Hanlon's Razor, but that's dependent on whether said woman or her son (who is mentioned in the news piece) was working the front register. The article doesn't say, but if someone else (of a fairer skin) was, this could easily be chalked up to idiocy. After all, idiocy is pretty common in the KKK.

If the woman was at the front though...hmmmm.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#10187: Jan 25th 2016 at 7:48:01 AM

You know, since it was in a load of dress bags, it might have been a guy just cleaning out his dead relative's wardrobe who just brought everything in without sorting it. That's also a common occurrence. He might not have even known that the Klan robe was in there.

If it was meant as a threat though, that's completely fucked up.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#10188: Jan 25th 2016 at 7:48:06 AM

Sounds like malice to me. By a different razor, I find it extremely hard to buy that a KKK member just happened to forget his robe in a black woman's store.

carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#10189: Jan 25th 2016 at 7:55:27 AM

Really too little info for any conclusion to be drawn from it. If it was an old one it would be pretty valuable as an antique in the same manner as old Nazi tchotchkes.

edited 25th Jan '16 7:57:44 AM by carbon-mantis

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#10190: Jan 25th 2016 at 8:09:25 AM

[up][up]That's the opposite of Occam's Razor. "They didn't realize the implications of turning a Klan robe into a consignment store owned by a black woman" (didn't realize the robe was in the pile of stuff they dropped off, didn't realize that the store was owned by a black woman, just didn't think about it, etc) is a much simpler explanation than "they decided to turn in a Klan robe as some sort of circuitous passive-aggressive intimidation tactic".

Coincidence is almost always a simpler explanation than conspiracy.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#10191: Jan 25th 2016 at 8:17:34 AM

It's the fucking Klan robe.

"They didn't realize the implications of turning a Klan robe into a consignment store owned by a black woman"

What kind of culturally deaf goldfish wouldn't realise that? The KKK isn't some obscure internet club or something. It's worldwide-recognizable group of bigots with distinct symbolism, second in infamy only to the actual literal Nazis.

(didn't realize the robe was in the pile of stuff they dropped off, didn't realize that the store was owned by a black woman, just didn't think about it, etc)

Again. It's the fucking Klan robe. This isn't a gray area.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#10192: Jan 25th 2016 at 8:31:50 AM

What kind of culturally deaf goldfish wouldn't realise that? The KKK isn't some obscure internet club or something. It's worldwide-recognizable group of bigots with distinct symbolism, second in infamy only to the actual literal Nazis.

You'd be surprised, especially with non-Americans. They may know some of the symbolism, but not especially care for it as it doesn't directly affect them. And anyway, if the man did know what it was, maybe he wanted shot of the robe ASAP because, like Jovian said, it belonged to a dead relative?

Again. It's the fucking Klan robe. This isn't a gray area.

Then what you do if you inherited a Klan robe?

edited 25th Jan '16 8:33:15 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#10193: Jan 25th 2016 at 8:33:07 AM

Figure out who in your family owned it so you know whose grave to spit on.

Oh really when?
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#10194: Jan 25th 2016 at 8:36:15 AM

I'd cut it up and make dusting rags out of it.

After all, the only things those robes should ever do is collect dust. (Bum bum tish.)

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#10195: Jan 25th 2016 at 8:41:03 AM

"It's the fucking Klan robe" isn't an argument for anything. Again: maybe they didn't even realize it was in a pile of stuff that they were selling, as Shima pointed out. How can something be intended as a veiled threat if the person doesn't even realize they've done it? Or they might not have known that the store was owned by a black woman. It seems unlikely that someone could make a racially-charged threat without knowing the other person's race. And it's quite easy to simply not think about these things — you find a Klan robe, you want to get rid of it, you decide to do what you do with all the old clothes you want to get rid of and take it to a consignment store. You're not considering the racial implications of it, you're just trying to get rid of the damn robe.

Anyway, my point was less that your conclusion was wrong and more that you were using Occam's Razor incorrectly. Occam's Razor isn't a judgment of accuracy, it's simply a statement about simplicity. And "they didn't think about the implications" is a simpler explanation than "it was intended as a roundabout threat". so Occam's Razor would point to "they didn't think about it" as the explanation, not "it was a threat".

edited 25th Jan '16 8:41:48 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#10196: Jan 25th 2016 at 8:41:55 AM

Refashion it into a cosplay costume.

I am thinking Asriel (for guys) or Toriel (For gals) from Undertale.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#10197: Jan 25th 2016 at 8:44:17 AM

[up][up][up]If it's old, donate it to a museum. I had a hell of a time finding stuff for a racism themed presentation in college because of "Burn it!" [lol]

edited 25th Jan '16 8:44:28 AM by carbon-mantis

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#10198: Jan 25th 2016 at 9:05:05 AM

Honestly 'Burn It' is literally the only right answer no matter the age of it.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#10199: Jan 25th 2016 at 9:10:34 AM

Refashion it into a cosplay costume. I am thinking Asriel (for guys) or Toriel (For gals) from Undertale.

Aszur, you just won an Internet.

"Aszur", huh.

Are you by any chance from the Dreemurr family?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#10200: Jan 25th 2016 at 9:18:36 AM

Not but if you DO have a spare SOUL I wont say no to it.

But anyways my point remains. The best thing you can do with something of a hate group is to turn it into a symbol for something else entirely. If you manage to mock the original group in the process, all the better. (For example, paying a black tailor to re do the robe).

In either case I cannot imagine that the kkk robes must have been uncomfortable. I bet they planned to be comfortable and not sweaty while burning crosses or something.

Waste not, want not.

edited 25th Jan '16 9:20:02 AM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

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