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Race- Privilege, Relations, Racism, etc.

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First thing's first: KEEP. THIS. SHIT. CIVIL. If you can't talk about race without resorting to childish insults and rude generalizations or getting angry at people who don't see it your way, leave the thread.

With that said, I bring you to what can hopefully be the general thread about race.

First, a few starter questions.

  • How, if at all, do you feel your race affects your everyday life?
  • Do you believe that white people (or whatever the majority race in your area is) receive privileges simply because of the color of their skin. How much?
    • Do you believe minorities are discriminated against for the same reason? How much?
  • Do you believe that assimilation of cultures is better than people trying to keep their own?
  • Affirmative Action. Yea, Nay? Why or why not?

Also, a personal question from me.

  • Why (in my experience, not trying to generalize) do white people often try to insist that they aren't white? I can't count the number of times I've heard "I'm not white, I'm 1/4th English, 1/4th German, 1/4th Scandinavian 1/8th Cherokee, and 1/8th Russian," as though 4 of 5 of those things aren't considered "white" by the masses. Is it because you have pride for your ancestry, or an attempt to try and differentiate yourself from all those "other" white people? Or something else altogether?

edited 30th May '11 9:16:04 PM by Wulf

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#10126: Jan 22nd 2016 at 3:12:50 PM

[up][up][up]Oh boy, I another band to add to the favorites and seek more from!

Honestly you could be a Cambodian playing and dancing Polka and I wouldn't give a damn about it, specially when they are good at it.

Bloody page topper.

edited 22nd Jan '16 3:13:34 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#10127: Jan 22nd 2016 at 3:22:07 PM

@Victin

That kind of sharing of culture is probably better described as "cultural exchange" or "cultural sharing" than appropriation. That's OK, and people who have a problem with that are reactionaries or overreaching in their activism. Appropriation is a much more specific act, though as I just mentioned frequently gets applied by social justice advocates more broadly to related but separate issues such as cultural fetishism or the above cultural sharing, at the expense of people's ability to communicate ideas of racial issues effectively.

The dictionary lists these definitions under "appropriating":

to take to or for oneself; take possession of.

to take without permission or consent; seize; expropriate

So stuff like the taking of cultural traditions or cultural markers without proper credit would count, such as what frequently happens in the fashion industry when they essentially plagiarize cultural motifs while the original cultures that inspired them languish in obscurity. However, outside cultures consuming products made with the explicit purpose of commercial consumption by a culture, such as white people buying and wearing kimonos or authentic Native American-produced jewelry, or learning bellydancing, or listening to rap music, or even producing it so long as they give proper credit to their inspirations, is not necessarily cultural appropriation. That's more cultural sharing, so long as the consumers enjoy them responsibly.

A base definition of cultural appropriation that most people can agree on would be the use of symbols sacred or restricted within their origin culture, such as ta moka, Plains Indian war bonnets, crucifixes or the Tetragrammaton, for commercial use because it looks "cool" or is "marketable", denying them their proper context and basically committing blasphemy or the secular equivalent of it.

This article also gives a pretty good explanation on cultural appropriation, probably better than I have.

edited 22nd Jan '16 3:31:28 PM by AlleyOop

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#10128: Jan 22nd 2016 at 3:24:27 PM

Cultural appropriation is basically where one culture harvests/copies another's cultural products and makes shitloads of money out of it without the original culture getting a cut. It is viewed as bad because it's a way for a powerful culture to benefit from a less powerful one while keeping the less powerful one impoverished and unacknowledged. Two of the most famous examples were what America did to black music in the twentieth century (basically, have white artists sing it and make bank from the new music phenomenon) and primitivist painters did to African tribal art, using it as a resource and inspiration without any respect for its original meaning or acknowledgement of its creators.

What's precedent ever done for us?
FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#10129: Jan 22nd 2016 at 3:26:46 PM

people talk about cultural evolution as if is a bad thing, look at Britain, curry is practically a national dish here, and tea is from China!

advancing the front into TV Tropes
Imca (Veteran)
#10130: Jan 22nd 2016 at 3:34:42 PM

. However, outside cultures consuming products made with the explicit purpose of commercial consumption by a culture, such as white people buying and wearing kimonos

You know this is fine right, and you would be hard pressed to find some one agianst it that is not just being racist?

Hell a common gift for foreigners that move in IS a kimono. :/

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#10131: Jan 22nd 2016 at 3:35:30 PM

Best not to probe too deeply into what we did to get our tea fix, though. The politics of Sri Lanka in particular were pretty drastically affected by it, and remain so to this day.

What's precedent ever done for us?
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#10132: Jan 22nd 2016 at 3:36:24 PM

Yeah, kimonos are a bad example.

If you a real example of Japanese cultural appropriation look at those chain Japanese steakhouses where the food is cooked in front of you by poor Koreans, the walls are covered in Chinese art, and the entire franchise is owned by a white guy.

Oh really when?
Imca (Veteran)
#10133: Jan 22nd 2016 at 3:39:26 PM

[up] I always thought that was just being your average American restaurant. tongue

Either way, yea, that definalty is a big problem.

edited 22nd Jan '16 3:39:38 PM by Imca

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#10134: Jan 22nd 2016 at 3:40:54 PM

[up][up][up][up]

Sorry, was trying to point out that white people buying kimonos is not cultural appropriation, despite the hubbub surrounding it of late.

Imca (Veteran)
#10135: Jan 22nd 2016 at 3:42:00 PM

Ahhhh, okay, sorry for the misunderstanding then, so used to dealing with people on tumblr that get offended for you. :c

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#10136: Jan 22nd 2016 at 3:42:41 PM

Wait, does Immy have a tumblr? Why do I not follow you?

Oh really when?
vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#10137: Jan 22nd 2016 at 3:42:44 PM

Sushi Police what.

Imca (Veteran)
#10138: Jan 22nd 2016 at 3:44:08 PM

[up][up] Because my tumblr and twitter exist soley so that I can follow other people, and get a grand total of no activity beyond that.

I got really annoyed one day with my 20 twitter bookmarks and decided to correct that. >.<

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#10139: Jan 22nd 2016 at 3:45:03 PM

Aw, you should totally follow me though.

Oh really when?
Imca (Veteran)
#10140: Jan 22nd 2016 at 3:45:57 PM

You would be the first English speaker I did. :D

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#10141: Jan 22nd 2016 at 5:29:54 PM

(pictures an Englishman in formal wear and top hat, walking around reading a speech out loud, while discretely being shadowed by an East Asian youth)

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#10142: Jan 22nd 2016 at 5:45:03 PM

@Alley Oop:

So stuff like the taking of cultural traditions or cultural markers without proper credit would count, such as what frequently happens in the fashion industry when they essentially plagiarize cultural motifs while the original cultures that inspired them languish in obscurity. However, outside cultures consuming products made with the explicit purpose of commercial consumption by a culture, such as white people buying and wearing kimonos or authentic Native American-produced jewelry, or learning bellydancing, or listening to rap music, or even producing it so long as they give proper credit to their inspirations, is not necessarily cultural appropriation. That's more cultural sharing, so long as the consumers enjoy them responsibly.

Well, for example, if one were not to agree that copyright is, uh, morally correct, then the notion that selling something created by another culture is wrong is null. However, without research to back this up, I can say I think that the exploiting of a subculture for the benefit of the hegemonic culture is wrong while at the same time the hegemonic culture holds prejudice over the other culture. However, that can, over time, make people realize said prejudice is stupid.

A base definition of cultural appropriation that most people can agree on would be the use of symbols sacred or restricted within their origin culture, such as ta moka, Plains Indian war bonnets, crucifixes or the Tetragrammaton, for commercial use because it looks "cool" or is "marketable", denying them their proper context and basically committing blasphemy or the secular equivalent of it.

Again, I've seen some people, I think mostly atheists, argue that there is no such thing as blasphemy, so that, for example, the depiction of Mohammed should not be considered wrong, despite the fact one should not go doing that because it's blatantly offending someone.

Article: I'm gonna take a look at it.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#10143: Jan 22nd 2016 at 6:01:38 PM

With regard to the blasphemy analogy, it's one of those things where you have the legal right to do it and to be protected from retribution if you do, but which is still something you shouldn't do for courteous reasons, at least not intentionally.

Going with the South park Mohammed controversy, they have the right to do it, but as Aasif Mandvi mentioned he's also entitled as a Muslim to feeling uncomfortable with Mohammed cartoons, and Pam Gellar and her ilk, while they don't deserve to be killed over it, are absolutely still assholes for their efforts to intentionally do things to spite Muslims.

The same is true of cultural appropriation. If people are doing it accidentally, it's their right to enjoy what they already have, but they should be corrected on how to do it responsibly or given better alternatives because continuing as is just isn't nice. And if they continue doing it even with that knowledge, then they're just being selfish jerks.

Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#10144: Jan 22nd 2016 at 6:09:32 PM

That article is very interesting. It goes to show the subject is really complex.

MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#10145: Jan 22nd 2016 at 6:23:40 PM

Also while kimonos are not cultural appropriation per se, some people still feel uncomfortable about it because of what it might imply (asian fetishism). Sorta like how fedoras imply things about people even though the fedora by itself is fine.

edited 22nd Jan '16 6:23:53 PM by MrAHR

Read my stories!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#10146: Jan 22nd 2016 at 7:53:24 PM

[up]maybe but them, should one stop buying or enjoying certein thing because SOME people find uncomfortable? because in that way it just being a thing of taste and nothing more

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#10147: Jan 22nd 2016 at 8:30:05 PM

No, but you might consider being understanding of why.

Read my stories!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#10148: Jan 22nd 2016 at 8:35:37 PM

[up]Maybe, but there is always some weird double standar here, if some people dont mind about it, is always "just become some of them dont mind dosent mean is not a bad idea" but when someone does mind is because they have a perfect valid reason about it, as their feeling being upset have more weight for....reasons.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#10149: Jan 22nd 2016 at 8:42:43 PM

Well... yeah? Like ok, if I have six friends. Five are indifferent to spiders. The sixth is arachnophobic. Just because there is less of the arachnophobic friend doesn't mean they get outvoted when we decide whether to allow a pet spider in the house.

Read my stories!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#10150: Jan 22nd 2016 at 9:27:32 PM

[up]You know a phobia is not the same as opinon on culturals issues, dosen it?, in that case I wont be around with my pet near him but that it, I won get rid of it(or something similar) just because someone else fear.

edited 22nd Jan '16 9:27:52 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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