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Race- Privilege, Relations, Racism, etc.

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First thing's first: KEEP. THIS. SHIT. CIVIL. If you can't talk about race without resorting to childish insults and rude generalizations or getting angry at people who don't see it your way, leave the thread.

With that said, I bring you to what can hopefully be the general thread about race.

First, a few starter questions.

  • How, if at all, do you feel your race affects your everyday life?
  • Do you believe that white people (or whatever the majority race in your area is) receive privileges simply because of the color of their skin. How much?
    • Do you believe minorities are discriminated against for the same reason? How much?
  • Do you believe that assimilation of cultures is better than people trying to keep their own?
  • Affirmative Action. Yea, Nay? Why or why not?

Also, a personal question from me.

  • Why (in my experience, not trying to generalize) do white people often try to insist that they aren't white? I can't count the number of times I've heard "I'm not white, I'm 1/4th English, 1/4th German, 1/4th Scandinavian 1/8th Cherokee, and 1/8th Russian," as though 4 of 5 of those things aren't considered "white" by the masses. Is it because you have pride for your ancestry, or an attempt to try and differentiate yourself from all those "other" white people? Or something else altogether?

edited 30th May '11 9:16:04 PM by Wulf

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#301: Jun 3rd 2011 at 11:22:59 AM

That's a very good point, and I think a much better way to tackle the problems of gang violence, anti-intellectualism, glorification of violence, etc. than attacking cultural elements like dialects, music or clothing.

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nzm1536 from Poland Since: May, 2011
#302: Jun 3rd 2011 at 11:23:57 AM

If their own community hates them for trying, no goverment work will help them

"Take your (...) hippy dream world, I'll take reality and earning my happiness with my own efforts" - Barkey
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#303: Jun 3rd 2011 at 11:26:09 AM

I don't believe that for a moment. The culture complicates the problem, but it isn't the root cause.

As I stated already, I don't believe that even all African American ghetto culture glorifies those things. There are probably many, many black people in ghettos who disapprove of them, to varying degrees. I say this with some confidence because the same appears to be true of every culture, in my experience.

edited 3rd Jun '11 11:28:17 AM by BobbyG

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breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#304: Jun 3rd 2011 at 11:30:25 AM

It's a lame excuse to blame culture for anything.

Take the Chinese community in North America. During the most oppressive government policies in the 50s and 60s, they created a major culture of hating whites, banding together to form insular communities and generally acting hostile towards anything "white". You fast forward to today, where there is heavy introduction of multiculturalism, you see almost no such mentality anymore. There's very little "us" vs "them", there's barely a single Chinese association that isn't struggling to survive because they are no longer relevant, you've no ethnic-based scholarships for the Chinese and they're generally very open. Grocery stores, restaurants, shopping malls, etc anything that is Chinese run won't bat an eye if a White person walked in. During the 50s and 60s, there was tension.

So yes, I believe it is entirely the government's fault if there is tension between ethnic groups. It is up to them to institute policies to bridge that gap and eliminate it.

edited 3rd Jun '11 11:30:38 AM by breadloaf

nzm1536 from Poland Since: May, 2011
#305: Jun 3rd 2011 at 11:45:45 AM

But goverment is not racist against blacks anymore. If anything, it gives them some special rights (i.e. affirmative action)

"Take your (...) hippy dream world, I'll take reality and earning my happiness with my own efforts" - Barkey
MRDA1981 Tyrannicidal Maniac from Hell (London), UK. Since: Feb, 2011
Tyrannicidal Maniac
#306: Jun 3rd 2011 at 11:55:20 AM

"There's no such thing as cultural neutrality, though. Benign indifference is still a rejection of the culture..."

I call "bullshit" on this; it strikes me as very binary, Saturday Morning cartoon way to look at the issue.

That tribalistic "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" outlook is one that needs to die infernally.

Enjoy the Inferno...
breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#307: Jun 3rd 2011 at 12:08:33 PM

But goverment is not racist against blacks anymore. If anything, it gives them some special rights (i.e. affirmative action)

I tend to look at it more economically. Since they are on average receiving less per capita in social services compared to the overall American average, then I would say the system is acting in a racist manner regardless of the intentions of the politicians.

TheProffesor The Professor from USA Since: Jan, 2011
#308: Jun 3rd 2011 at 12:13:06 PM

Not every action has to do with race.

The government didn't create racism, people did. It's not the government's job to fix all of society's problems.

Sometimes they can't put as much money into one community because there just isn't enough, not because they're racists.

kashchei Since: May, 2010
#309: Jun 3rd 2011 at 12:15:57 PM

"But goverment is not racist against blacks anymore. If anything, it gives them some special rights (i.e. affirmative action)"

Hahahahahaha, okay. Might this be in the same universe as the tooth-fairy and Santa Claus?

edited 3rd Jun '11 12:16:46 PM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?
nzm1536 from Poland Since: May, 2011
#310: Jun 3rd 2011 at 12:19:20 PM

[up][up]This

[up]You're right. I forgot we are living in kukluxklanic naziland with apartheid, lynchings and genocide

"Take your (...) hippy dream world, I'll take reality and earning my happiness with my own efforts" - Barkey
kashchei Since: May, 2010
#311: Jun 3rd 2011 at 12:21:42 PM

You, my friend, live in Poland, if your listed location is accurate. What would you know of American institutionalized racism?

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?
nzm1536 from Poland Since: May, 2011
#312: Jun 3rd 2011 at 12:23:56 PM

I know it was abolished long time ago and if it wasn't, everyone from civil rights activists through UN to every 'liberal'-leaning newspaper would cry about it so loudly you just couldn't not know about it

"Take your (...) hippy dream world, I'll take reality and earning my happiness with my own efforts" - Barkey
kashchei Since: May, 2010
#313: Jun 3rd 2011 at 12:27:40 PM

They do cry about it all the fucking time, because it happens. Don't make the mistake of thinking that, just because it cannot happen too overtly and legally, racism is absent from legislative dealings.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?
nzm1536 from Poland Since: May, 2011
#314: Jun 3rd 2011 at 12:29:14 PM

Seriously? I haven't noticed over absurdities like crying over Resident Evil

"Take your (...) hippy dream world, I'll take reality and earning my happiness with my own efforts" - Barkey
JethroQWalrustitty Since: Jan, 2001
#315: Jun 3rd 2011 at 12:30:36 PM

I think a part of the whole black-white dichtomy in the US that doesn't apply to any of the other racial interactions, is the history of it. Slavery, segregation, white flight, the civil rights movement. The relations will just be problematic because of the wieght of it. Similarly there is the tension between the english speaking and hispanic people, burdened by the history of US and Mexico, and later rest of South America.

The Asian minority, for example, doesn't have as much baggage. Partly it's because there's so many different ethnic groups, and they crossed the ocean, and aren't as immideate as the Hispanics who populate the southern half of Americas, or the blacks who are decendants of a historically large imported slave population with long history in US society.

[ed.] "institutionalized racism" doesn't mean racist policy, it means built in racism, like higher penalties for the samme crimes, or less funding for schools in different neighbourhoods. E.g. higher penalties for posession of crack cocaine v. powder cocaine, and No Child Left Behind act which cuts funding for schools with lower test scores.

edited 3rd Jun '11 12:44:14 PM by JethroQWalrustitty

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#316: Jun 3rd 2011 at 12:34:05 PM

I doubt the false dichotomy of "quit mooching off benefits and pull yourself up by your bootstraps" helps, either. There are many things I like about American culture, but the callous attitude I often hear expressed regarding people living in poverty is not one of them.

I call "bullshit" on this; it strikes me as very binary, Saturday Morning cartoon way to look at the issue.

That tribalistic "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" outlook is one that needs to die infernally.

I didn't say "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem". Nor do I believe that.

Do I take it from this that you do believe a person can be entirely culturally neutral?

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Rainbow Pomeranian Lover from Central Illinois (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Pomeranian Lover
#317: Jun 3rd 2011 at 12:35:29 PM

@nzm: Institutionalized racism doesn't mean laws that promote racism. It means that racism is still inherent in some practices in some major institutions, basically that it's part of the system even if it's officially not supposed to be. You're correct, there are now laws against obvious segregation and hate crimes (ex. things like separate bathrooms or bus seats that are marked as being only for a certain race or school segregation are gone now). However, it's the difference between de jure racism (by law) and de facto (in practice). "In practice" meaning that there is still more subtle racism (ranging from things as obvious as someone shouting ethnic slurs to something like "That person is really articulate for a black person" which implies black people aren't articulate, which I think was said about Obama once). However, I understand how that term can be confusing, not everyone is aware of sociological terminology like that.

And as I mentioned, there was ALWAYS affirmative action in the US, even if it wasn't called that. Only the earlier kind was the kind that favored white people for jobs, schooling, etc.

I can understand how it's confusing or surprising for non-US people, though, some aspects of US racism are rather unique to that country alone because of certain historical aspects (probably mainly slavery and then things like Jim Crow laws which were the segregation laws I mentioned).

edited 3rd Jun '11 12:50:16 PM by Rainbow

JethroQWalrustitty Since: Jan, 2001
#318: Jun 3rd 2011 at 12:46:05 PM

Missing White Woman Syndrome is another aspect of institutionalized racism. Crime simply matters more if the victims are white.

nzm1536 from Poland Since: May, 2011
#319: Jun 3rd 2011 at 12:51:22 PM

[up][up]Slurs have nothing to do with institutionalized racism. They are either personal racism (as doing it in the workplace would get you fired) or just offensive words. You won't find official documents using the word 'nigger' just like you won't find official documents using the word 'fuck'

"Take your (...) hippy dream world, I'll take reality and earning my happiness with my own efforts" - Barkey
nzm1536 from Poland Since: May, 2011
#321: Jun 3rd 2011 at 12:53:46 PM

So what does it mean? I think it means 'goverment and dependent institutions being racist'

"Take your (...) hippy dream world, I'll take reality and earning my happiness with my own efforts" - Barkey
JethroQWalrustitty Since: Jan, 2001
#322: Jun 3rd 2011 at 1:02:06 PM

De facto, not de jure racist. Just because something is not in the letter of the law, or words aren't used in official documents doesn't mean institutions can't be racist. Balck defendants tend to get harsher penalties than white defendants. etc.

nzm1536 from Poland Since: May, 2011
#323: Jun 3rd 2011 at 1:07:45 PM

I was responding to the claim that usage of slurs is an example of institutionalized racism

"Take your (...) hippy dream world, I'll take reality and earning my happiness with my own efforts" - Barkey
TheProffesor The Professor from USA Since: Jan, 2011
#324: Jun 3rd 2011 at 1:18:52 PM

People have to be careful about the intentions of these things. Just because something is done in a particular way that isn't as good for one race over the other doesn't make it racism.

That's like calling people who are against some of the things Obama has done racists for being against him. It's ridiculous.

People shouldn't hate others simply because of race and people shouldn't be able to pull the "racists" card as soon as something doesn't go their way.

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#325: Jun 3rd 2011 at 1:25:01 PM

But do intentions really matter here? I mean, most privilege (and that's involving any groups, in all societies - white, black, Christian, whatever) is so insidious precisely because there's no malicious intent behind it. It's all based on prejudices and assumptions, so it goes largely unnoticed, and its consequences are only felt by the oppressed groups.

Besides, these things feed off one another. A non-racist action can inadvertantly assist a racist one.

edited 3rd Jun '11 1:26:46 PM by BobbyG

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