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[Official] Troper Tales Redesign and Rename

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juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#101: May 30th 2011 at 11:09:37 AM

...yeah, me neither.

I thought we agreed that that was pretty much what we mainly wanted to kepp. (Sorry if this assumption is wrong)

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#102: May 30th 2011 at 11:09:38 AM

If we rename it to being something about Real Life as all the ideas seem to indicate, that excludes things that happen in media. It will make it impossible to focus on individual personalized media experiences and will refocus it on people saying they're awesome.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
INUH Since: Jul, 2009
#103: May 30th 2011 at 11:11:32 AM

@Teh Fire Shark:The guidelines now are fine. People don't follow them, so this is happening in order to make them.

The forcing people to sign is to prevent people from anonymously posting objectionable content, some of which has been bad enough to threaten the wiki's ability to keep its ads, and therefore continue existing.

edited 30th May '11 11:12:35 AM by INUH

Infinite Tree: an experimental story
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#104: May 30th 2011 at 11:12:13 AM

What happened in your game is Real Life. Personal experience. Not a Media example.

Yowuza Since: Sep, 2010
#105: May 30th 2011 at 11:12:58 AM

edited 16th Apr '13 10:40:03 AM by Yowuza

juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#106: May 30th 2011 at 11:13:32 AM

Shimaspawn: that's why I suggest Troper Anecdotes, actually. Something like Meanwhile in reality or In Real Life implies that we're not admitting gaming/Roleplaying troper tales

Also:

but you guys are simultaneously saying that there's nothing wrong with Troper Tales, and that everything is wrong with it.

No, we're trying to fix what's wrong...which is, at least according to the people who agree with this proposition, a lot

Nearly every Troper Tales page I have read stayed on topic, and when I see a nonsensical or unrelated post, I remove it.

Being on topic is far from the only criteria behind page editing.

edited 30th May '11 11:14:21 AM by juancarlos

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
Yowuza Since: Sep, 2010
#107: May 30th 2011 at 11:14:41 AM

edited 16th Apr '13 10:40:32 AM by Yowuza

dontcallmewave Brony? Moi? surely you jest! from My home Since: Nov, 2013
Brony? Moi? surely you jest!
#108: May 30th 2011 at 11:15:04 AM

Will the old Troper Tales be available anywhere for people who want to read it?

He who fights bronies should see to itthat he himself does not become a brony. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, Pinkie Pie gazes Also
INUH Since: Jul, 2009
#109: May 30th 2011 at 11:15:36 AM

^Well, given that they're being archived in order to allow people to copy theirs over, I'd say it looks like it.

Infinite Tree: an experimental story
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#110: May 30th 2011 at 11:15:42 AM

It is a media experience. It's an interactive media experience, but it's still very much a media experience. It's the opposite of what most gamers consider to be real life. This is really going to discourage that sort of example.

Besides, it's not the replies that have been the issue in Troper Tales. The biggest issue with them is that tropers didn't feel like they were allowed to moderate them themselves. This is only going to reinforce that mentality and aid their decline. We'd really just started having people dive in and clean them up. We were starting to make a difference. This is going to make that almost impossible and it's going to be a step backwards.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#111: May 30th 2011 at 11:15:50 AM

Dontcallmewave:

What will happen to the old Troper Tales?

They will be archived in a manner similar to the old discussion pages. You are encouraged to move your own tales (and only your own tales) to the new page when it's available.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
dontcallmewave Brony? Moi? surely you jest! from My home Since: Nov, 2013
Brony? Moi? surely you jest!
#112: May 30th 2011 at 11:17:35 AM

So I will still be able to read them. That's a relief. I was afraid we were erasing the whole thing and starting from scratch.

He who fights bronies should see to itthat he himself does not become a brony. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, Pinkie Pie gazes Also
Loid from Eastern Standard Time Since: Jun, 2011
#113: May 30th 2011 at 11:28:32 AM

@Shima

But without the anonymous nature of the old TT, people won't post as much bile as before, given that their name will now be attatched. So, there will be less need for moderation.

edited 30th May '11 11:29:53 AM by Loid

"Dr. Strangeloid, or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Cleanlink" - thespacephantom
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#114: May 30th 2011 at 11:29:21 AM

That, and it'll be relatively easy to find them and ban them.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
SilentReverence adopting kitteh from 3 tiles right 1 tile up Since: Jan, 2010
adopting kitteh
#115: May 30th 2011 at 11:32:32 AM

I'm personally OK with moving to the new format, although there are two things that concern me greatly: the lack of a reply function, and the requred signing up examples.

For the first one, what about a Faceborg-like vote option? Without the dislike button of course, otherwise the effort is for naught. Or what a count option, something that ends up saying "[X amount of] people say this trope happened to them, too!"

As for the second, it's far more complicated. You could sockpuppet it but that's still traceable in-site if I am not mistaken. If anonimity is that important for a trope, poxy and create an account around it, but that's bordering on a lot of (in-size) political and technical issues. And, to be honest, after seven years around computer stuff, I don't see any need to explicitly sign up an entry if, unlike what happens with a wiki page diff, the new system is going to keep a tighter and more discrete record of "User X posted Record #Y" anyway, so that unwanted additions could be undone without needing to have everyone know who X was (which is not a good thing although) or have to cummulatively undo other unrelated changes.

I have no opinion so far about the name.

edited 30th May '11 11:33:39 AM by SilentReverence

Fanfic Recs orwellianretcon'd: cutlocked for committee or for Google?
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#116: May 30th 2011 at 11:34:38 AM

A lot of the really bad entries were signed even on the old system. It's not a deterrent. Especially if we can't edit them. And signing the entries isn't going to do anything about misusing the tropes either which is a huge source of the garbage.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Killomatic TURN OFF THAT LIGHT! from Loli Funtime Playhouse Since: Oct, 2010
TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
#117: May 30th 2011 at 11:36:14 AM

Who says we can't edit them? And would everyone stop jumping to conclusions. We haven't even seen anything from the new format yet.

Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#118: May 30th 2011 at 11:39:30 AM

A lot of the really bad entries were signed even on the old system. It's not a deterrent. Especially if we can't edit them. And signing the entries isn't going to do anything about misusing the tropes either which is a huge source of the garbage.

Yes and no, to be honest. Again, I think that the main purpose of this is to make trolls/bad editors easy to localize and ban.

Who says we can't edit them? And would everyone stop jumping to conclusions. We haven't even seen anything from the new format yet

by that logic, we shouldn't be discussing right now and just wait for a preview...

edited 30th May '11 11:40:16 AM by juancarlos

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#119: May 30th 2011 at 11:40:08 AM

Every other discrete posting on this site has made it impossible for non-mods to just delete bad posts. I don't like the idea of needing mod intervention to curate the pages. Forums, YKTTW, discussion pages, Ask The Tropers, even where we can edit other people's posts we can't just delete them.

[up] It's not going to make them easier to notice and ban. Encouraging curators on the existing pages would do that. Making new harder to curate pages is just going to encourage people to ignore them until they become a big issues again.

edited 30th May '11 11:41:31 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
SilentReverence adopting kitteh from 3 tiles right 1 tile up Since: Jan, 2010
adopting kitteh
#120: May 30th 2011 at 11:42:39 AM

There's nothing preventing an user from notifying a mod or curator that "hey, TroperTales.This Stuff record #0xDEADBEEF is natter/rightwing/lolicon/Insane Troll Logic, please check" and then the mod/curator, and only them, need to know the mapping from entry number to poster, and take care adequately, including sending a PM or banning if approriate, which only they should be able to do anyway. The basic idea not delegating capabilities not needed to fulfill responsibilities.

Fanfic Recs orwellianretcon'd: cutlocked for committee or for Google?
Rotpar Always 3:00 am in the Filth (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Always 3:00 am in the Filth
#121: May 30th 2011 at 11:44:30 AM

Don't know how possible it is to implement. Perhaps a splash page the first time you edit a New Troper Tales page, or whenever you edit like the editing tips, provide people with a reminder of the "new" rules and functions of the pages:

  • Sign your post - Be held accountable for what you're doing.
  • No Natter - It's bad here just like everywhere else.
  • How To Write An Example - "Me too" is a fine sentiment but as useless as an "X Just X" example on a trope page. If you encountered This Trope, share more details then just "me too". A hulking Wall of Text that isn't necessary is also bad, provide the details that are relevant but try to make it as concise as possible.
  • Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment - Don't make outlandish, untrue stories or use the page as a place to brag/gush about How Awesome you are.

But don't give up hope. Everyone is cured sooner or later. In the end we shall shoot you.
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#122: May 30th 2011 at 11:44:55 AM

Pretty much what Silent Reverence said.

Just because we don't edit entries doesn't mean we can't flag them for future deltion, which is admittedly not better than what we had, but I find it preferable than having to clean up many, many, many pages.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#123: May 30th 2011 at 11:46:39 AM

So every time someone posts something that doesn't fit the trope we need to flood the mod's inboxes? 95% of what needs to be cleaned up on Troper Tales isn't lolicon or porn or anything like that. It's people who didn't get the trope description right. That shouldn't need mod intervention. Making that harder to clean up encourages other worse sorts of violations.

It's just encouraging a huge, harder to clean up mess later because we don't want to deal with the one we have now. The mods have better things to do then clean up after every poster that can't get a trope definition right. The big reason that Troper Tales are a mess now is because we took the attitude that only the mods could clean them up. Returning to that attitude is going to return us to that mess.

edited 30th May '11 11:50:06 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
SilentReverence adopting kitteh from 3 tiles right 1 tile up Since: Jan, 2010
adopting kitteh
#124: May 30th 2011 at 11:50:23 AM

Then notify a curator. Someone who has the adequate powers to deal with the problem. It doesn't necessarily have to be the top of the scale, that's why I posted the "/alternative". Having only an adequate person execute the changes also has another merit: accountability for the actions, and the status of the page, goes full-circle around curators and posters in a manner that limits intentional damage to the page.

Fanfic Recs orwellianretcon'd: cutlocked for committee or for Google?
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#125: May 30th 2011 at 11:50:39 AM

95% of what needs to be cleaned up on Troper Tales isn't lolicon or porn or anything like that. It's people who didn't get the trope description right. That shouldn't need mod intervention

No, it shouldn't, admittedly, but if we start from zero, where everyone has seen what happened to the old ones, due to the archives, would they really need to work that hard?

First and foremost is to discourage the kind of editing that makes TT so loathed, and I think that 1) taking anonimity away from them 2) Making them easier to track and 3) Not allowing them to be answered to, therefore making it harder for them to boast, be noticed and feed their ego would do that

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.

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