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What's wrong with "coercion" as defined by Libertarians?

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feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#1: May 28th 2011 at 4:58:25 PM

I think this is where we keep hitting problems in our political debates. It's not that I don't believe the government takes taxes by force. It's that I don't see what the problem with that is. I mean, given both my illness and my finances, I might not even be alive if I weren't draining other people's cash. I just do it through indirectly driving up health insurance premiums, rather than through having my health care paid for by taxes.

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Erock Proud Canadian from Toronto Since: Jul, 2009
Proud Canadian
#2: May 28th 2011 at 5:03:38 PM

Because health insurance companies are awful instutions.

If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.
LoveHappiness Nihilist Hippie Since: Dec, 2010
Nihilist Hippie
#3: May 28th 2011 at 5:06:38 PM

They redefine "coercion" to mean (an idealized conception of) property rights violations.

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HungryJoe Gristknife from Under the Tree Since: Dec, 2009
Gristknife
#4: May 28th 2011 at 5:24:48 PM

Just about every political philosophy that applys to anything beyond a kindergarten has coericon of some sort.

What differs is what that coercion is used to obtain, and the circumstances under which it is used.

For example, even the most libertarian of libertarians wouldn't argue against coercing an invader to leave. Or at least, I hope not.

edited 28th May '11 5:26:02 PM by HungryJoe

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.
blueharp Since: Dec, 1969
#5: May 28th 2011 at 5:26:05 PM

Are you asking what's wrong with their definition, or what they define as the wrong of it?

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#6: May 28th 2011 at 6:17:26 PM

The problem with the libertarian concept of coercion:

  • With government: You have $100. The government takes about $20 of it, leaving you with $80.
  • Without government: You have 2 cows and a sheep. Somebody with a gun kills you and takes it all, leaving you with no cows and no sheep.

TLDR: Yes. government takes your money, but it takes it in order to maintain its ability to protect you and your money. You would not have property rights without government for all practical purposes.

blueharp Since: Dec, 1969
#7: May 28th 2011 at 6:18:52 PM

You left out what they do with the 20 bucks.

Let's say they build a road, so you can take your cattle to market.

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#8: May 28th 2011 at 6:19:27 PM

^^ You are mistaking libertarian ideology for anarchist. The two are not compatible. (Especially for US libertarians.)

edited 28th May '11 6:19:36 PM by MajorTom

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#10: May 28th 2011 at 6:25:22 PM

"Coercion" is one of those touchy words that is often re-defined to suit the needs of the moment. Like a good many subjective terms, really.

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MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#11: May 28th 2011 at 6:31:07 PM

^ You mean like "welfare" and "human rights"?

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#12: May 28th 2011 at 6:33:03 PM

Yes, like "socialism" and "big government".

We could compose a list.

edited 28th May '11 6:33:32 PM by BobbyG

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del_diablo Den harde nordmann from Somewher in mid Norway Since: Sep, 2009
Den harde nordmann
#13: May 28th 2011 at 6:36:58 PM

People really dislike being told the truth of what the extension of the word means, and people have mostly not thought about it.
Hence the original use is usually to shock the opponents into fail to do a properly reply.
Of course, the problem then falls back to that you just derail it into a Sliding Scale and hence the problem is no more.

A guy called dvorak is tired. Tired of humanity not wanting to change to improve itself. Quite the sad tale.
GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#14: May 28th 2011 at 6:38:07 PM

Communism Fascism Government Control

Liberalism Conservatism DO A BARREL ROLL!

...

Its not easy to make a Stupid Statement Dance Mix out of weasel words, ok?!

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
blueharp Since: Dec, 1969
#15: May 28th 2011 at 6:40:39 PM

Dude, you should put that on Youtube.

Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#16: May 28th 2011 at 7:34:12 PM

How are you gonna pay for roads and police and fire fighters and schools and libraries and all the things taxes pay for without taxes?

HungryJoe Gristknife from Under the Tree Since: Dec, 2009
Gristknife
#17: May 28th 2011 at 7:40:22 PM

I've heard one fellow say the Free Market would cause buisnesses to ensure such things.

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#18: May 28th 2011 at 7:41:47 PM

Private Cops and Firefighters? Only private schools who can have their own agenda? Hahaha. No fucking thanks.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#19: May 28th 2011 at 7:42:58 PM

[up][up]Whoever said that has never studied history.

edited 28th May '11 7:43:51 PM by Fighteer

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FrodoGoofballCoTV from Colorado, USA Since: Jan, 2001
#20: May 28th 2011 at 7:44:45 PM

In one town there was a privately owned fire department. The problem was, when they arrived, they'd have to check whether you'd paid, and if you hadn't you'd have to pay before they did anything, and by that time the fire had gotten worse.

However, private schools have had a long and successful history. Of course most didn't teach the poor.

Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#21: May 28th 2011 at 7:45:49 PM

And private police would have zero reason to go into low wealth reasons (where all the crime takes place)

HungryJoe Gristknife from Under the Tree Since: Dec, 2009
Gristknife
#22: May 28th 2011 at 7:46:34 PM

The average public school teacher gets paid more than the average private school teacher, even in some of the more prestigious schools.

Unless you're at the collegiate level.

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#23: May 28th 2011 at 7:47:24 PM

[up] And? They are still paid shit. Thats a fault of the private sector.

blueharp Since: Dec, 1969
#24: May 28th 2011 at 7:49:13 PM

Private schools are good at serving their students. Unfortunately, they aren't necessarily so good at being open in selecting their students.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#25: May 28th 2011 at 8:01:18 PM

The idea of corporations filling those roles makes me cringe.

Who watches the watchmen?

Total posts: 241
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