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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in the LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion Thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:53:59 PM

inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
Anwalt der Verdammten
#2051: Mar 30th 2012 at 10:58:06 AM

Or rather:

accept that the Bible is flawed and colored by cultural values of the people that wrote and thus those parts of it countermand to it's inherit message.

How are you to say what the inherent message is?

As with any work of such stature, The Bible is a complex, multifaceted document.

And The Bible is supposed to be God communicating with us, you think he'd be able to trust out ability to interpret, analyse, and comprehend.

But we digress.

(*And I'm Agnostic BTW*)

edited 30th Mar '12 10:59:55 AM by inane242

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.
whaleofyournightmare Decemberist from contemplation Since: Jul, 2011
Decemberist
#2052: Mar 30th 2012 at 10:59:49 AM

How are you to say what the inherent message is?

You can't, thats why there were 2 centuries of wars in Europe.

Dutch Lesbian
LMage Since: May, 2011
#2053: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:00:18 AM

@inane

It seems that the generally agreed upon core message of the Bible is "love, acceptance, forgiveness", at least by the only Christians that seem to make coherent sense (to me)

Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#2054: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:00:46 AM

[up][up][up]And that would mean that Christians couldn't decide that the inherent message involves preventing gays from marrying.

edited 30th Mar '12 11:01:00 AM by Vericrat

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
Anwalt der Verdammten
#2055: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:05:27 AM

If I were to try and get a message from the Bible it would be "Fear And Obey God".

But we digress.

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#2056: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:06:30 AM

What is it with people treating the bible with so much reverence even if they're non-Christians? Okay, from a historical point of view it's a nice work since it's one of the most complete source materials out there, but that's about it. In short, the bible was written in parts by the clannish, corrupt cult leaders of primitive goat herders living 3000 years ago and in part by wash-outs of Hellenist philosophy 2000 years ago, and the parts are all horrible in different, contradicting ways.

edited 30th Mar '12 11:07:12 AM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
whaleofyournightmare Decemberist from contemplation Since: Jul, 2011
Decemberist
#2057: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:09:10 AM

[up] Blah blah America needs a cultural anchor blah blah

Dutch Lesbian
LMage Since: May, 2011
#2058: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:11:00 AM

I don't have much respect for the Bible (Agnostic), but you know what they say about "knowing your enemy", if you can use their own holy book to destroy their arguments, you can bring them over to your side.

edited 30th Mar '12 11:11:39 AM by LMage

Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#2059: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:14:34 AM

@Octo - the point is that Christians are using the Bible as a perfect source, especially for things they want to do that don't make sense in any other context (denying gays their rights), so by the same reasoning, they should treat it as a perfect source for things they don't want to do (keep women from talking in church). I believe Christ had choice words for hypocrites...

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
Anwalt der Verdammten
#2060: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:15:05 AM

[up][up][up][up]I found it a good read.

I don't revere it any more than I revere, say Remembrance Of Things Past or Foucault's Pendulum or Candide, but it's one of the oldest documents we have (*Even if you loose things in translation*), and it's good to know through what lenses others see the world.

edited 30th Mar '12 11:17:19 AM by inane242

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#2061: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:17:07 AM

I treat it reverence myself largely because I feel it's rude not to. It's also a very lovely text with nice lessons scattered about in it. And it has Jesus who is pretty cool, yo. I treat other religious texts similarly. Your Bhagadvadgita's and so on.

I have stronger reverence for my own religious texts however.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
Anwalt der Verdammten
#2062: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:18:01 AM

Also: Paul was a dick.

TOPIC

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#2063: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:20:00 AM

Paul's letters are very hard to read. At least he admitted to being just well...Paul as opposed to some infallible authority.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
Vehudur Since: Mar, 2012
#2064: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:22:08 AM

It's very annoying that the only arguments against gay marriage are naught but thinly veiled excuses for bigotry. Including in this thread.

"Separate but equal" is discrimination. Courts have even ruled it as such, repeatedly. "Because it's traditional!" arguments were used nearly word for word against ending black segregation.

And I could go on for hours.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
Anwalt der Verdammten
#2065: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:24:03 AM

Guys? Can we stop using that whole black people analogy? Every time you use it, Starship doesn't listen to you.

edited 30th Mar '12 11:24:12 AM by inane242

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.
LMage Since: May, 2011
#2066: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:26:51 AM

@inane

Never mind it's validity -sigh-

Honestly at this point I think everyone but Starship is on more or less the same page: There is no real argument against gay right that stands up under scrutiny and there is no logical reason to deny us equal rights.

edited 30th Mar '12 11:27:44 AM by LMage

whaleofyournightmare Decemberist from contemplation Since: Jul, 2011
Decemberist
#2067: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:27:33 AM

[up][up][up]

What TSM defines as traditional marriage is the one born out of the Industrial revolution in the United Kingdom.

edited 30th Mar '12 11:27:43 AM by whaleofyournightmare

Dutch Lesbian
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#2068: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:34:02 AM

I myself am getting rather tired of the "It's like the Civil Rights!" movement comparisons as well despite supporting gay rights. Because it largely doesn't work in my experience. Regardless of how valid a comparison it may be I don't see it working a lot of the time. What I see is two sides screaming the same arguments at walls.

As for arguments that hold up under scrutiny...TSM has admitted that his arguments don't hold up to scrutiny a few times. He holds his beliefs regardless, but seems to vote in favor of civil unions becoming equal and/or gay marriage from what I've seen of him. Given that he isn't being a dick and votes in favor of the thing I don't really see a point in trying to get him to change his beliefs.

At least this is my understanding of him from past conversations I've had with him both in private and in public.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
Anwalt der Verdammten
#2069: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:36:25 AM

He disagrees with me on one of the few things I feel strongly on, and I would like to change his mind.

That said, it's probably a fools errand.

edited 30th Mar '12 11:38:49 AM by inane242

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.
Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#2070: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:44:53 AM

the analogy has its flaws, yes, but it's still rather fresh in the cultural psyche, and a rather similar, so it's perhaps inevitable that the two would get conflated.

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
whaleofyournightmare Decemberist from contemplation Since: Jul, 2011
Decemberist
#2071: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:45:54 AM

Some members of the Anglican communion, including elements of the Church in Wales, have become more homophobic, claims a vicar who has resigned over the issue of gay marriage.

The Reverend Andrew Morton, vicar of Llangybi, Monmouthshire, is the first in Wales to step down over the issue.

He says he would have been willing to carry out such ceremonies.

The Church in Wales said it a "matter of regret" for clergy to resign over an issue yet to be resolved by the church.

It follows a UK government consultation on whether to allow gay couples in Wales and England to marry.

Civil partnerships, introduced in 2005, already give gay couples similar legal rights to married couples.

But the government wants them to be legally allowed to make vows and declare they are married before the next general election, due in 2015.

Mr Morton, who has been a vicar for 33 years, says many of his colleagues privately agree with his stance, and that homophobia is endemic in some respects.

"First of all I felt that the church's position on same sex relationships, never mind same sex marriages, was increasingly judgemental and not really inclusive in the way that I felt that it should be," he told BBC Wales.

"I feel a greater degree of homophobia in the church than I've felt for a long time. Maybe it's just my personal perception but it certainly seems to be more prevalent in some quarters of the church.

"I felt that in order to offer an authentic critique of the church as an institution, the most honourable thing was to do it from the outside rather than from the inside which was what prompted the resignation."

He said that he came across people who in the "guise of what they feel to be religious conviction, came up with some extraordinarily homophobic statements".

However, he said it was not true of the majority of the church, which was "very forgiving and very loving".

The Church in Wales said: "We regret the resignation of any of our clergy over an issue that has not been resolved by the church.

"We are trying to move forward gently in a way that takes everyone along with us and that calls for time and patience."

The Bench of Bishops of the Church in Wales said in a statement it abided by the Christian doctrine of marriage as the union between one man and one woman freely entered into for life.

"We acknowledge that whilst issues of human sexuality are not resolved, there are couples living in other lifelong committed relationships who deserve the welcome, pastoral care and support of the church and we are committed to further listening, prayerful reflection and discernment regarding same-sex relationships," it said.

Canon Andrew Knight, vicar of Sketty in Swansea, who opposes gay marriage, said the Christian community had sympathy with gay people but it "cannot celebrate something which is not seen as being good".

"The difficulty when you get a gay partnership is two-fold really. On the one hand that is not something which is ever applauded by scripture," he said.

"The Bible speaks about people of the same gender coming together always to say that is not part of God's plan, and it does it in both Old Testament and New, and [there are] a number of writers saying that, so it's not just one odd comment in a backwards corner which could be misunderstood."

Reacting to the UK government consultation, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, has said the law should not be used as a tool to bring about social changes such as gay marriage.

He warned that the law may turn out to be ahead of majority opinion in this case.

It seems that being a Christian and wanting gay marriage aren't mutually exclusive

edited 30th Mar '12 11:46:15 AM by whaleofyournightmare

Dutch Lesbian
LMage Since: May, 2011
#2072: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:47:16 AM

I agree with inane, it's worth trying to change his opinion but it's pointless at the stage.

I just can't comprehend being able to admit that your arguments aren't strong enough to withstand logical thought yet still believing in them, but at the same time there's not a real chance of convincing Starship otherwise.

setnakhte That's terrifying. from inside your closet Since: Nov, 2010
That's terrifying.
#2073: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:48:58 AM

At least he's willing to admit his stance is illogical, that is the first step to bringing someone to your side.

"Roll for whores."
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#2074: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:50:27 AM

It's from his having religious faith and he's fine for having it since he's not outright harming me or being unpleasant. He can safely feel it's wrong while knowing he can't convince the masses at large. This is however a difference between myself and how you feel about the matter.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
Anwalt der Verdammten
#2075: Mar 30th 2012 at 11:51:39 AM

I didn't say him believing what he wants isn't ok, I just said I wanted to change his mind.

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.

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