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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in the LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion Thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:53:59 PM

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9327: Mar 22nd 2013 at 7:30:34 AM

But let's switch it up. If you and I worked at TV Tropes, and one day you and Morgikit were off work at the bar and you guys said "Boy, that Starship and his right-wing Christianity makes me sick, " but you didn't realize I was at the bar at the same time and overheard and I went back to our Manager, Shima, and accused you of violating my freedom of religion.....

But I don't drink alcohol!

Err... anyway, yeah, that would be pretty stupid. In any case, though I'm still not sure what the limit is. What if we said: "Damn, that Starship guy is one stupid negro. I hope he dies of Aids."? I mean, I'd be pretty disturbed to work with people like that. :C

LMage Since: May, 2011
#9328: Mar 22nd 2013 at 7:31:17 AM

@Starship

Well tough. I know for a fact that I've been passed over for at least one job for a less qualified individual because of the fact that I am publicly out on the internet. If an employer decides that he doesn't want a homophobic person in his work place, then I don't see why the homophobic work should get protection while I still don't. Talk to me when something resembling protection is put in place for gay individuals.

LMage Since: May, 2011
#9330: Mar 22nd 2013 at 7:46:31 AM

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but why don't you find an attorney and make some money then?

Because I'm flat broke, and honestly it's not really worth it. Besides I live in New Mexico, our government can make up it's mind about raising the minimum wage, let alone anything else.

And also, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that given the slant of power you'll have to forgive if I am skeptical about the same group that eviscerated bullying laws meant to protect at risk gay teenagers in high school wants more protections for themselves. I'll be all for Christian protections, when they actually become a prosecuted group. But if you get caught spewing hate and your employer decides he doesn't want that to be a liability at his company, I don't see what the difference is between that and getting caught drunk by your employer, or some other activity you know is wrong and would be disapproved of.

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9331: Mar 22nd 2013 at 7:49:56 AM

God, I'd fire you for being lame. tongue

What's so wrong about being chaste? D:

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9332: Mar 22nd 2013 at 7:50:18 AM

Starship if a teacher said that about your kids and I was the principle I'd fire them. They clearly can't be good when it comes to teaching your children if their chanting "destroy the black people" at a KKK rally on weekends. Someone like that is clearly a liability and potentially unsafe for kids to be around.

Also there is the harassment issue. Even if it has nothing to do with work you should fire the Christian who went to a lesbian coworker's facebook and called her an abomination, or the Atheist who posts all Christians deserve to die on his front page.

edited 22nd Mar '13 7:51:41 AM by Wildcard

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9334: Mar 22nd 2013 at 7:56:04 AM

I don't agree Card. It seems nobody believes this, but one can be an asshole and still be moral and ethical

If that is true for some it still doesn't mean a racist can be impartial when teaching a race he or she doesn't like.

How is that cherry picking ship? A gay guy can't say he wants all Christians to die and go to hell either.

edited 22nd Mar '13 7:59:30 AM by Wildcard

LMage Since: May, 2011
#9336: Mar 22nd 2013 at 8:01:15 AM

@Starship

But see, me being gay can't be a liability to the company or store. I mean unless I'm wear my pride button to work (which would be unprofessional anyways) no one who walks into the store is going to know I'm gay. But there is a real chance to a gay couple that comes into the store might get yelled at our refused service by the homophobic employee, just like there is a risk that a alcoholic might come in drunk to work.

Is it and fair? No. Is it reasonable? From a capitalist view, pretty much.

edited 22nd Mar '13 8:02:41 AM by LMage

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9338: Mar 22nd 2013 at 8:06:51 AM

Only if your counting talking as not doing anything. If a person said that out loud in a public place what is to say he won't be spewing hateful rhetoric on one of his or her students in the off hours or if they live next to each other she won't be shouting racial obscenities on the street? Words can be powerful and they can be dangerous.

Edit:[up] Showing a stance on an issue the workplace is supposed to be neutral on I suppose.

Edit 2:

With that said, so what if a gay guy says all Christians should die and go to hell? I'm not going to, so he can say it all he wants.

Inciting other people to take action or harassment against the Christian person is question. Someone shouting "burn the Christians" can spread the idea that Christians can be burned and inspire people to take actions towards that goal. Now don't misunderstand I'm not saying arrest people on that action alone, but if he does that while working for me I'd be giving money to a person like that and helped support this cause. In essence I'd be supporting his viewpoint and as a boss I wouldn't want to support him.

edited 22nd Mar '13 8:16:57 AM by Wildcard

LMage Since: May, 2011
#9339: Mar 22nd 2013 at 8:07:49 AM

It's no more a false equivalence then "I don't agree with inter-racial marriage = racist"

EDIT:

I'm of the opinion that professionalism only functions when everyone leaves their personal lives at homes. I'm a gay activist, I write, I volunteer at homeless shelters, I read. None of that has anything to do with my job and unless it does it should stay out of my job. The focus of the work place should be work.

edited 22nd Mar '13 8:14:32 AM by LMage

IConfuseMe from Washington, DC Since: Jan, 2010
#9341: Mar 22nd 2013 at 8:18:40 AM

Card, a racist, like Christianphobe, is an individual. He might be able to have his view, but place his duties as a teacher above them. We really need to get rid of this bs idea so prevalent in these threads and elsewhere that if you have this viewpoint it MUST mean you'll act in this way. Not so. And believing such a thing is prejudice and bigotry, pure and simple.

I hear what your saying. I really do. Treat based on they're actions. I almost agree with it in a way. But there's a risk there. I think you and others are looking at this in two different ways.

You are looking at this as innocent until guilty. Until there is evidence that the neo-nazi doctor is damaging their patients, he should be allowed to do his job.

Others (and I agree with them) is the view of probable cause. Waiting until the neo-nazi let's his Jewish patient die on the operating table is waiting to long. If you prove yourself a potential danger, the possibility must be addressed.

So know, I don't think we should, for example, let a teacher who spews racist venom on his off days near children because if he slips up once, even once, the damage he can do to that kid is incalculable. And yes, I will say the same thing of the guy who spews hatred at Christians/Hindus/Insert religion of your choice here.

And something to keep in mind: not everyone is conscious of how their biases affect them. I am pretty sure there are a lot of people out there who consider themselves consummate professionals and have, without even realizing, have discriminated against someone. I imagine someone who doesn't see anything wrong with their racist/sexist/homophobic insert hatred of your choice here won't even notice how much there bias affects their everyday actions.

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#9342: Mar 22nd 2013 at 8:23:29 AM

I see if this way, Maxima. That you're christian, or that I know Indians at my school who are muslim, or that theres a guy at my college who wears traditional arabian headdresses while going to and from his classes, or that I have gay friends, or even the one christian, libertarian, ayn rand reading friend I have? I'd be equally pissed if any of them were discriminated against for being who they are.

Thats what I want in the workplace and greater society. That no matter what you are, treating others like shit for being who they are should have consequences.

edited 22nd Mar '13 8:24:11 AM by Midgetsnowman

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9343: Mar 22nd 2013 at 8:24:26 AM

@Starship: Are we talking past each other? I'm not saying they aren't allowed to say it. I'm not going to arrest somebody on for saying something. Just that they must face the consequences of their actions. If I'm a principle I'm not going to pay a teacher who on there off hours is helping hate groups. It would be like my money going directly into the hands of a hate group. So if the consequence is "your fired" I'd say that is fair.

edited 22nd Mar '13 8:25:06 AM by Wildcard

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9345: Mar 22nd 2013 at 8:35:15 AM

@Starship: As much as I wouldn't agree with the decision I would have no basis for fighting it. So yes I suppose you could fire somebody for that with no repercussions.

Anyone more familiar with laws then us? Are either of those options legal?

Edit: Ship I'm aware of that. I'm not going to take away the pay I've already given them or take away the back pay I owe them. I'm just not giving them any more.

edited 22nd Mar '13 8:36:59 AM by Wildcard

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#9346: Mar 22nd 2013 at 8:37:16 AM

But we aren't pre-empting misdeeds. We're punishing misdeeds they've already done. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from the consequences of your speech. If you tell a customer they can go fuck themselves, you're going to get fired no matter if you did it because they were a Muslim, a homosexual, an Asian, or a transsexual.

You have the right to say whatever you want to say. You do not have the right to say whatever you want to say with no consequences.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
IConfuseMe from Washington, DC Since: Jan, 2010
#9348: Mar 22nd 2013 at 8:38:59 AM

Frankly, I do not believe everyone is a bigot against someone else. And even if it were true, it would not be an excuse to ignore bigotry. That many people do something is not an excuse to ignore it.

Also, there's a difference in the assumption of bias and the evidence of bias. If you cannot get through your day without ranting on Facebook about how you hate X group, you are letting your bias affect your actions. That right there is evidence that you cannot control it.

But anyway it's not about punishment. It's about prevention. I would liken it to a threat. When someone threaten's someone, you don't wait for them to charge. So if you openly declare yourself to have a bias, you are telling people that you might act on that bias. They have the right to protect themselves and their interests accordingly.

What you're suggesting is to fight discrimination by discriminating. It doesn't work, has never worked, and NEVER WILL work.

Are you joking? Social stigma and shaming are the single most effective tool against discrimination to ever exist. For that matter they are the single greatest behavioral controls ever to exist. A tolerant society doesn't mean that every single idea should be tolerated, that every idea and belief is equal. Specifically, a tolerant societty cannot coexist with one that advocates racism or homophobia.

If a customer is particularly rude and you get off work and vent about that customer to your buddies at your local watering hole, and said customer happens to overhear and tries to have you fired, your company will laugh in their face. If the company is so cowardly they fire you, you'll then be collecting a nice payout.

There are many many examples out there that would disagree with you.

edited 22nd Mar '13 8:41:22 AM by IConfuseMe

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9349: Mar 22nd 2013 at 8:42:01 AM

@I Confuse Me: Can you show us some?

Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#9350: Mar 22nd 2013 at 8:42:16 AM

@Starship and Wild Card: Actually I think that would be discrimination in both cases, at least where I live it would probably be recognized as such.

What people do with money you pay them shouldn't be legally grounds for termination, unless one is actively trying to harm the company itself.

edited 22nd Mar '13 8:44:07 AM by Medinoc

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

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