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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in the LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion Thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:53:59 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4701: Aug 20th 2012 at 9:43:26 AM

And those are exactly the workplaces where equal pay laws have a hard time taking hold, for the very reasons you mention.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#4702: Aug 20th 2012 at 9:49:16 AM

This is quoted from American Progress:

The Williams Institute finds that gay and bisexual men earn 10 percent to 32 percent less than similarly qualified heterosexual men, in a meta-analysis of 12 studies examining earnings and sexual orientation in the United States. This is true even when controlling for education, race, occupation, and years of work experience. Williams’ findings for lesbian and bisexual women, however, are less clear. According to Williams’ analysis, lesbian and bisexual women earn the same or sometimes more than heterosexual women. But that’s not to say that lesbian workers do not experience gaps in pay. Research indicates that lesbian workers still earn less than both heterosexual and gay men.

Ironically, women are not penalized for sexual freedom. Just for being women. Men, OTOH, get that wonderful boost up of being a man, but are punished if they transgress their sexual norms.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
Chalkos Sidequest Proliferator from The Internets Since: Oct, 2010
Sidequest Proliferator
#4703: Aug 20th 2012 at 10:08:54 AM

Mmm. Not just irony, but multilayered irony. Like a savory seven-layer dip of discrimination.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4705: Aug 20th 2012 at 11:06:08 AM

If we address pay discrimination as a general policy, then ideally it wouldn't be necessary to distinguish between reasons for said discrimination. However, someone bringing a civil or criminal action under any such statute would have to identify and describe the exact behavior that occurred, so it will become an issue in practice if not in principle.

As a matter of principle, it is necessary to specify exactly what constitutes discrimination because of the Ain't No Rule problem.

edited 20th Aug '12 1:37:55 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#4707: Aug 21st 2012 at 11:01:00 PM

Does that study make a distinction between open and closeted homosexual men? One can't claim discrimination if the employer doesn't know the person's orientation, after all.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#4708: Aug 22nd 2012 at 12:09:53 PM

So what's the argument there? That tons of closeted gay employees with equal qualifications to straight men just so happened to be unlucky enough to be consistently given worse wages due to completely unrelated circumstantial factors across twelve separate studies? Are you bringing that up because you believe that, or just playing devil's advocate?

When asked more specific questions about the type of discrimination experienced, LGB respondents reported the following experiences that were related to their sexual orientation: 8%-17% were fired or denied employment, 10%-28% were denied a promotion or given negative performance evaluations, 7%-41% were verbally/physically abused or had their workplace vandalized, and 10%-19% reported receiving unequal pay or benefits.

Note the 'related to their sexual orientation' part.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#4709: Aug 22nd 2012 at 12:24:41 PM

These are measure of what the respondent thinks is the cause of the mistreatment. Gotta be honest and say people can have all kinds of reasons in mind for these things that are more like justifications than reasons.

"Because I'm gay, I didn't get a raise." Could very naturally be a mask over poor performance. Sour grapes.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#4710: Aug 22nd 2012 at 12:25:27 PM

When they say "related to sexual orientation", what is the basis for that claim; statements of the employers, or the employees' own perceptions? These are legitimate questions, and I see no link to the source quoted.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#4711: Aug 22nd 2012 at 12:32:30 PM

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/lgbt/news/2012/04/16/11494/the-gay-and-transgender-wage-gap/

For those of you too lazy to copy-paste the quote into Google and click the very first freaking result.

By and large the issue of 'closeted' LGBT individuals is not addressed within these sources. If you want to assume that a diverse range of closeted LGBT individuals were identified for these studies despite their closeted nature and then also all subject to martyr complexes, then go ahead and do that, but you'll have to actually show proof of the plausibility of that premise rather than just saying that it 'technically isn't impossible' as a cheap means of shutting down countless statistics.

edited 22nd Aug '12 12:37:38 PM by Karkadinn

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#4712: Aug 22nd 2012 at 3:43:40 PM

Do openly gay and transgender men tend to pursue different careers? For instance, is there any statistical basis to the stereotype of theater being full of gay men?

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#4713: Aug 22nd 2012 at 3:50:44 PM

[up] As far as I know, there aren't any studies done on it. However, I can see how it'd be assumed that a lot of guys in theater are Camp Gay. On the other hand, I've known several straight guys in theater classes that have been mistaken for Camp Gay.

edited 22nd Aug '12 3:51:34 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#4714: Aug 22nd 2012 at 3:53:38 PM

You'll note that the original quote mentions controlling for occupation in any case.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#4715: Aug 22nd 2012 at 4:29:07 PM

I did note that. However, I don't think that invalidates my question, does it?

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#4716: Aug 25th 2012 at 6:31:19 AM

A debate between Dan Savage and Brian Brown argue about gay marriage.

To be honest, the part of this that made me the most upset was not anything Brian Brown said since I went into it listening to the debate knowing that he was a homophobe. What made me most upset about this was Dan saying that polygamy should not be given the same rights as monogamous marriages because it was harmful and homosexual marriage was not. I knew that Brian would make offensive statements coming into this, but I did not expect anything offensive to come from Dan. :/

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#4717: Aug 25th 2012 at 7:24:12 AM

[up]Savage is also kind of weird about transgender issues, isn't he?

What's precedent ever done for us?
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#4718: Aug 25th 2012 at 7:40:53 AM

Dan's talked about his views on Polygamy before and while he's fine with couples that are less than monogamous, he's never seen a stable long term poly group. As a result he sees the fact that they're more likely to fall apart in his opinion as damaging to the idea of a stable home life. He's actually all for non-monogamy.

His issue with transpeople is that honestly, it's impossible to talk about transexuals without making a misstep somewhere. It doesn't matter how well read your are or how PC you try to be, someone, somewhere will be offended.

The really sad part though is how it doesn't come off as an actual debate. It's like debates are gone out of fashion. You just keep reciting talking points that fly in the face of reality and call it a debate. That bit is on Brown though.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#4719: Aug 25th 2012 at 7:49:54 AM

Savage is also kind of weird about transgender issues, isn't he?

Based off of a quick google search, he used to have issues with both transgender people and bisexual people, but, as time went on, he became more accepting of them, and he isn't transphobic or biphobic anymore.

he's never seen a stable long term poly group. As a result he sees the fact that they're more likely to fall apart in his opinion as damaging to the idea of a stable home life.

He's actually all for non-monogamy.

To me, that's like saying that homosexual relations are more likely to fall apart because you don't know anyone in a stable, long-term relationship, and you believe that gay people shouldn't get married. Basically, that isn't all for non-monogamy, that's offensive and polyphobic.

His issue with transpeople is that honestly, it's impossible to talk about transexuals without making a misstep somewhere. It doesn't matter how well read your are or how PC you try to be, someone, somewhere will be offended.

To quote an expert on Dan Savage by the name of Dan Savage:

When I started writing Savage Love 20 years ago, and you can yank quotes 15, 18 years ago and flat them up today and say, ‘You know, that’s transphobic,’ I’d probably agree with you. 15 years ago I didn’t know as much as I know now — nor did anybody.
[Source]

The really sad part though is how it doesn't come off as an actual debate. It's like debates are gone out of fashion. You just keep reciting talking points that fly in the face of reality and call it a debate. That bit is on Brown though.

It sounded like Dan was debating Brian, but Brian wasn't debating Dan.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#4720: Aug 25th 2012 at 7:56:14 AM

Yeah, I said the debate thing was more on Brown. It does make me sad though that he's the politician and Dan's just an advice columnist but Dan's the one who knows how to debate.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#4721: Aug 25th 2012 at 8:04:58 AM

Brian is not a politician, he's a lobbyist. He doesn't need to understand how to do a debate, just how to get people to do what he wants.

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#4722: Aug 25th 2012 at 8:06:20 AM

I am quite confident as soon as homosexual rights are furthered, we can have more constructive conversations on things like bisexual, transexual, and polyamorous relationships.

I have gotten a lot of flack from both homosexuals and heterosexuals for being bisexual. The most common flack is "Why can't you just pick one?" The second main form of criticism is my personal taste in partners somehow negating my sexuality: such as me just not being into overly masculine women. I support their choices of expression, but that doesn't mean I have to find them attractive.

As long as there are divisions within the minorities, it's hard for the collective to have a civil and constructive conversation. I would love to see more polyamorous groups come out to show that there is a way to have a positive and healthy relationship like that. I know however, in this current climate, that's like asking for volunteers for the Little Rock Nine.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4723: Aug 25th 2012 at 8:15:29 AM

Well, I'm not sure what my thoughts on outright polygamy as a legal institution would be, but that really has more to do with tax reasons and the like.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#4724: Aug 25th 2012 at 8:20:50 AM

To me, hearing Dan Savage saying those things would be like hearing, say, Martin Luther King say some anti-semetic stuff, which I actually looked into just now, and he definitely wasn't anti-semetic.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4725: Aug 25th 2012 at 8:26:21 AM

<Insert offensive joke line from MLK>

<Instantly banned>


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