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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in the LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion Thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:53:59 PM

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4676: Aug 17th 2012 at 1:56:18 PM

I don't like the idea of churches being able to make legal decisions, I guess.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#4677: Aug 17th 2012 at 2:01:12 PM

[up]Particularly in America. Anyone remember the First Amendment?

What's precedent ever done for us?
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#4678: Aug 17th 2012 at 2:09:31 PM

So, call civil unions 'marriages.' Incredible sturm and drang over a single word.

Does the legal definition of marriage require a church's blessing? Seems like that would be actionable under separation of church and state.

edited 17th Aug '12 2:10:58 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4679: Aug 17th 2012 at 2:10:29 PM

That's what happens when you get dogmatic institutional memes mixed up with your politics.

[up] No, you can be married without church approval in the United States. Civil weddings are entirely standard — technically, you don't even need a ceremony; you just need a piece of paper from your local county clerk saying you're married.

The issue here is that (mainly) religious groups are getting, or have gotten, or are trying to get, their definition of marriage (man-woman, one each) legislated into fact.

edited 17th Aug '12 2:17:21 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#4680: Aug 17th 2012 at 2:10:41 PM

[up][up]But... but then the gays will think they're people! sad

edited 17th Aug '12 2:18:55 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
MasterInferno It's Like Arguing on the Internet from Tomb of Malevolence Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
It's Like Arguing on the Internet
#4681: Aug 17th 2012 at 2:18:01 PM

Does the legal definition of marriage require a church's blessing? Seems like that would be actionable under separation of church and state.

Nope, you're considered legally married when you file for it at the county clerk (or similar office) and the paperwork clears. Any religious or civil ceremony you want to do is entirely optional; at least that's my understanding of how it works is (most of?) the US.

GAH, NINJA'D

edited 17th Aug '12 2:18:24 PM by MasterInferno

Somehow you know that the time is right.
Chalkos Sidequest Proliferator from The Internets Since: Oct, 2010
Sidequest Proliferator
#4682: Aug 17th 2012 at 2:24:07 PM

Justices of the peace are by default capable of "solemnizing" (read: doing the paperwork) marriages. Others can register to be able to solemnize marriages, including religious officials.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4684: Aug 17th 2012 at 4:39:48 PM

When it comes to human rights, there are no "small" issues, unfortunately. It's not one of those things that you can just shrug off with an Appeal to Worse Problems. Any inequality is still inequality.

edited 17th Aug '12 4:40:15 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4686: Aug 17th 2012 at 4:43:51 PM

To be sure, yes, getting killed for being gay is worse in the short term than being excluded from a social institution like marriage.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4688: Aug 17th 2012 at 4:46:41 PM

It's about Doing What You Can. Effective anti-discrimination policy is hard, because it's hard to prove. Laws preventing homosexual couples from being married are very visible, and not hard to prove. So they're easier to do something about.

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#4690: Aug 17th 2012 at 5:30:24 PM

@Tomu: Yes. As are laws against mentioning homosexuality in the classroom. The second one is particularly effective to tackle, as it teaches kids from a young age that gay kids are just like normal kids. It reduces the desire to ostracize gay kids in school, and carries over into adulthood as well.

edited 17th Aug '12 5:30:43 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4691: Aug 17th 2012 at 5:52:58 PM

Yep, definitely something to mobilize against.

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#4692: Aug 17th 2012 at 6:08:35 PM

Then again, I'm also a firm believer in education solving most problems, and think that socializing kids in diverse environments helps in the long run.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
LMage Since: May, 2011
#4693: Aug 17th 2012 at 6:52:35 PM

There is also very strong merit to be said for changing the culture perception of something though legalization. Legalizing Gay Marriage has to potential to cut down on discrimination and hate crimes, by creating a perception that society in general dose not approve of mistreating gays. The best way to change cultural norms is with symbolic actions. You can't craft policy thoughts, not mater how much you might feel it is warranted, so instead you need to informally influence positive change.

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#4694: Aug 18th 2012 at 2:00:06 AM

My viewpoint on gay marriage is pretty controversial. I'm anti marriage. Governments and other institutions have no business in my relationship. I do not require or desire their blessings. So, for me the idea of requiring a marriage certificate to validate a human right is invalid, no matter if you are heterosexual or not.

It isn't like a driving license, where driving can easily be thought of as a privilege, not a right. Living with and having sex with whomever (of age) you want is a right that is built into the genes.

It makes the issue difficult for me in that it is like the gay population is struggling for the right to be equally oppressed.

Fast Eddie, this isn't about what marriage means to you. It's about what it means to society as a whole, and who can and cannot have a piece of that institution.

Don't get me wrong; I know what you mean. I didn't think much of the concept of marriage...until I went and had one. "What It All Means" takes on a whole new range of color and texture when you are one standing at the altar putting a ring on your love's finger.

Humanity has crafted an intricate creation when it comes to marriage. We as individuals can embrace it or mock it as we choose, but the fact remains...it exists. and the vast majority of people give that institution credence. You want the state to get out of the marriage business? I fucking laugh at you, because the state has been in the marriage business since forever...hell, look up some medieval history if you don't believe me.

Simply put, the institution matters. You may not like it, but it does.

What the gay community is after is acknowledgement that yes, their emotions and desire to be validated carry the same weight as anyone else. They want public recognition, the same as any other would-be married couple.

Trying to say "well marriage is a bullshit institution anyway" is just ducking the fucking issue. LGB Ts want recognition in a field humanity has already established through several millennia of precedent, and I for one think we ought to give it to them.

Whether or not it's "bullshit" can be saved for another day.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#4695: Aug 18th 2012 at 2:13:25 AM

[up] ...I don't believe the Quick One was saying that marriage is a bullshit institution, so gays shouldn't marry. I believe he was saying that marriage is something personal, and the government has no place in marriage at all, regardless of whether it is with a member of the same sex or the opposite sex.

edited 18th Aug '12 2:16:50 AM by deathpigeon

FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#4696: Aug 18th 2012 at 9:19:52 AM

I suppose it is a digression to go into worthiness of marriage as an institution. And, as has been stated, there isn't much that can be done about it, pragmatically. As a parting shot on the topic, though — I've been living with the same lady for 30+ years. I get the commitment thing.

Back to the main topic, then. Every adult who wants to get married should be able to get married. I just hold on to my hope that one day people will be free to make that decision without any societal requirement to do so.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#4698: Aug 20th 2012 at 7:14:26 AM

Pass a blanket law saying unequal wage practices are illegal regardless of gender, sexuality, race, etc. And if a valid case is found, make it easier to bring the motion to court by streamlining paperwork.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4699: Aug 20th 2012 at 9:21:16 AM

I will be honest; I was not aware of pay discrimination against gays as being a major issue. Other forms of discrimination, sure, but wage inequality? How is that even justified?

I guess I could understand it as part of systematic discrimination in other ways, wherein gay employees would be passed up for raises and promotions on the basis of factors notionally unrelated to their sexual orientation, wink wink nudge nudge.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LMage Since: May, 2011
#4700: Aug 20th 2012 at 9:40:37 AM

[up]

Most major companies (whose only really loyalty is to the bottom line not an sense of morality) actually have pretty god polices in regards to gay workers or just don't care. But on a smaller scale level (local management, or mom and pop small businesses for example) personal prejudice is a problem for almost every minority, since there is more leeway for personal views or moralities to affect treatment of workers and business policy.

edited 20th Aug '12 9:41:13 AM by LMage


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