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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in the LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion Thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:53:59 PM

Fish1 h Since: Sep, 2010
h
#4102: Aug 1st 2012 at 2:49:50 PM

But it is happening! It's been happening since civilization began! The KKK used to punish people for having unpopular opinions about blacks. The American government used to punish people for having unpopular opinions about communism. ESPN punished Hank Williams Jr. for having an unpopular opinion about the president. And society in general punishes people for having unpopular opinions about a lot of things. You may not like it, but it's a fact of life.

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#4103: Aug 1st 2012 at 2:50:51 PM

[up][up]

The third reich had very little to do with oppressing people who hated gays (in fact. Gays were one of their targets). it mostly involved a combination of pissed off lower class workers, the rest of the world screwing Germany's economy into the ground and then crushing them under its bootheel, and festering, long-simmering racism getting combined by very savvy people.

besides, by the same token, giving people free reign to say whatever the fuck they want with no consequences means I should be allowed to walk into a crowded theater and scream FIRE knowing full well I'm about to get a lot of people killed.

edited 1st Aug '12 2:56:50 PM by Midgetsnowman

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4104: Aug 1st 2012 at 2:51:34 PM

[up][up][up]Interesting. One side is right and the other is getting millions of dollars from people like Dan Cathy to buy legislation. Funny how I'm not excited by that.

Fortunately, equal rights for gay people does continue to gain traction in the United States, if slowly and painfully. People like Cathy are on the wrong side of history and will eventually wither into irrelevance... I hope.

In the meantime, those on the other side are within their rights to exercise any legal means to tell them to shut the fuck up.

edited 1st Aug '12 2:52:04 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#4106: Aug 1st 2012 at 2:57:26 PM

[up]

Thats fine and dandy. except right now, your gay bro lacks a fuckload of rights you do have.

edited 1st Aug '12 2:57:38 PM by Midgetsnowman

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4107: Aug 1st 2012 at 3:01:04 PM

Starship, the war you describe is already being fought. Do I necessarily agree with the municipalities in question denying CFA an operating license? No. However, they are within their legal rights to do so, just as the president of CFA is within his legal rights to donate to NOM.

And you know something... I cannot bring myself to fight for the rights of a person to hate another person. If you wish to dislike me for that, so be it. I'll live with it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4108: Aug 1st 2012 at 3:09:09 PM

I disagree with officials barring CFA from engaging in Chicago/etc, but I support the boycotting of CFA, largely because, well, that's what boycotts are for. The protocol for businesses is "KEEP YOU !@#$ING HEAD DOWN." Businesses are in the business of doing business. The existence of boycotts serves as a punitive measure, thus incentivizing businesses to stick to business. A boycott is the only means to legitimately restrict a business' actions, by creating proper incentivzes on them, rather than abusing the force of law.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#4109: Aug 1st 2012 at 3:09:15 PM

So, Chick-A-Fil has discriminatory hiring practices (as testified to by Forbes in DG's link), they support hate groups, actual hate groups, not just NOM, and while some of their franchise owners are cool people, a number of gay employees feel that they could lose their jobs if they are outed and find that the company itself is oppressive.

Chick-A-Fil is a public operator. It is illegal for a public operator to make a protected group feel unwelcome. In Illinois, gays are a protected group. As a result, Chick-A-Fil is breaking Illinois law and is involved in a lawsuit over it. Is this a good enough reason to ban them from Chicago? I would think that a history of illegal activity would be a good reason to kick them out.

edited 1st Aug '12 3:09:53 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4111: Aug 1st 2012 at 3:12:55 PM

I thought the discriminatory hiring practices thing was just a rumor; but if that's true, then I guess that that's that.

I suppose the point is that, if the guys saying "you can't have a firm here" are doing the right thing (prohibiting discriminators from operating) for the wrong reasons ("you donate money to nasty nasty people") then that's still a problem. But, c'mon. How do you go "I am sorry that I discriminated against Chik-fil-A for the wrong reasons, but now we're prohibiting them entry for the right reasons?"

edited 1st Aug '12 3:14:42 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#4112: Aug 1st 2012 at 3:17:56 PM

No, it's the same reasons. It's just not what the reasons have been strawmaned to be. It's never been about oppressing freedom of speech. It's about politicians protecting their constituents.

What Chick-A-Fil is doing is illegal in Illinois.

edited 1st Aug '12 3:18:27 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4113: Aug 1st 2012 at 3:18:47 PM

The official statement from Emanuel was "Chik-fil-a's values are not Chicago values," correct?

Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#4114: Aug 1st 2012 at 3:19:05 PM

You step away for just a second...

@Jhim: In truth, anyone who says that there is an absolute, God-given (or natural law, or any other non-human authority) definition of marriage is full of it. However, when marriage carries with it tangible benefits and responsibilities, it is not just a whimsical thingamabob that can be redefined at will. Gay marriage advocates are well aware that they are swimming upstream against a long-recognized definition of marriage in Western culture; however, rational analysis of the tradition has failed to discern any reason other than disliking gay people why marriage should not be allowed to them.

Irrational hatred is never a legal justification no matter what.

Fighteer, you're free to disagree with my stated reasons for opposing the practice, and to dislike them heartily; however, I'm not sure that one could fairly describe my grounds as "disliking gay people," much less "irrational hatred." You might want to allow that there could be a few non-trivial, non-religiously motivated reasons for daring to disagree with you here. Call them faulty or ill-founded—hell, call them stupid if you want—but let's not pretend that any & all objections can be prima facie dismissed, or that declaring all dissenters bigots is a comprehensively valid way to carry the point.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#4115: Aug 1st 2012 at 3:20:52 PM

Incorrect. That was one line of a longer speech. A blurb and a quote out of a larger argument. That doesn't mean that's all that exists of the mayor's reasoning.

edited 1st Aug '12 3:21:32 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4117: Aug 1st 2012 at 3:25:01 PM

Jhimm: To the extent that all dissenters are bigots, they should be declared bigots, and to the extent that the best arguments available arise at the conclusion that they are bigots, so then must we come to the conclusion that they are bigots.

That being said, I literally popped in just a page ago, so I'm not sure that's the case here.

[up] It's more the "They've been sued for discrimination twelve times" thing.

edited 1st Aug '12 3:25:28 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#4119: Aug 1st 2012 at 3:32:15 PM

There was just a big story on the TV news about the Public Operator lawsuit against them in Illinois suing them for unlawful business practices. They are currently in legal proceedings in Illinois for discrimination and for making a protected group unwelcome at their establishment. I can't find the same article online. There's way too much noise to signal on them right now. Here is one article I can find though:

Currently you seem to be fighting for the right of companies to break the law.

edited 1st Aug '12 3:32:45 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4121: Aug 1st 2012 at 3:38:02 PM

The point is, all that happened before the "Chik-fil-A's values are not Chicago values" line...

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#4122: Aug 1st 2012 at 3:40:18 PM

Exactly. The lawsuits, the illegal behaviour, the discrimination against a protected class, those are the reasons they aren't allowed in Chicago. Not just because of a few statements. But because of actions.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#4125: Aug 1st 2012 at 3:58:01 PM

Dan Cathy speaking up brought a lot of skeletons out of the closet. It's what made people take a long hard look at the company. It's not the first time a company has gotten away with a lot of BS until something happened to make people take a long hard look at them. In this case it was the CEO's comments that brought the scrutiny, yes, but that doesn't mean it's not undeserved.

It's more: "It's NOT okay if you discriminate and do illegal shit. But voicing an opinion about it can make people notice that you are."

edited 1st Aug '12 3:59:13 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

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