TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

LGBTQ+ Rights and America

Go To

Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in the LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion Thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:53:59 PM

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#251: Jan 4th 2012 at 10:12:55 PM

And yet, there's plenty of people who simply skip all that and go to a courthouse to get married or skip off to Las Vegas. The church's influence is a cultural thing, and culture necessarily affects politics. Change the culture; all the power you say needs to be taken from the church has already been made secular.

Flyboy Decemberist from the United States Since: Dec, 2011
Decemberist
#252: Jan 4th 2012 at 10:29:42 PM

If only it was so simple...

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#253: Jan 4th 2012 at 10:47:26 PM

I didn't say it was simple, I just pointed out the more logical path than the one you suggested. I've found that the hardest solutions are the ones that can be said in one or two sentences.

edited 4th Jan '12 10:47:58 PM by AceofSpades

breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#254: Jan 5th 2012 at 3:23:48 AM

People understand it well here that to get married you get a licence from the government, not from a church. I think it's just cultural in America that they think it is moreso in the hands of religious institutions than it is with a secular government organ.

The reason we compromised is because two rights are in conflict, "Freedom of Religion" and the anti-discrimination clause in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. So we had to compromise, unlike Octo's examples for Germany, our charter does indeed guarantee some rights for religions (and also lack of belief). The compromise was fairly "simple" in that, we just had to ensure you could always get married but you might not have total freedom about who is marrying you.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#255: Jan 5th 2012 at 7:24:42 AM

The problem is that in the United States, religious groups feel that they can legislate morality.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#257: Jan 5th 2012 at 7:57:37 AM

I love how it's feeding them to the lions and executions. Apart from when the British do it. We just heckle them tongue

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Flyboy Decemberist from the United States Since: Dec, 2011
Decemberist
#258: Jan 5th 2012 at 7:59:27 AM

I wasn't talking about Christians in general, I was talking about fundamentalists and fanatics....

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#259: Jan 5th 2012 at 8:05:20 AM

Unfortunately, everybody is a fundamentalist and an extremest these days. You've just got to ask the right people.

Vote Democrat? You're an extreme-left nutjob that's going to start a reverse-crusade against American morality and slaughter conservatives.

Vote Republican? You're a far-right bigot that's going to stop at nothing to reintroduce racism and institute a theocracy.

Don't vote? You're a good-for nothing who doesn't care about rights, and that sort of apathy is going to lead to the downfall of the US.

Go to church? You hate atheists and want to see all of them executed!

Don't go to church? You hate the faithful and want to see all of them executed!

And so on.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#260: Jan 5th 2012 at 8:06:15 AM

Certain Christians I wouldn't at all mind feeding to lions. But yeah, that's not what we're talking about at all. There are plenty of Christians who have nothing against gays per se but aren't comfortable with gay marriage more or less because their religion says so. Which strikes me as an absurd reason from a personal standpoint.

The issue is the true fanatics who make it their mission to ensure that the evangelical voting bloc universally opposes gay marriage. Those people need to get their heads out of the 10th century's ass.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#261: Jan 5th 2012 at 8:10:40 AM

[up][up] Yes. Treating fundies like trolls to be ignored? Doesn't fly. And I'll tell you why.

With the decline of the churches, we have experienced what the religious call a decline in morals, but what is actually a decline in moral certainty. People crave direction, and religion offers that. A time of economic and social unrest is the time to watch the churches most carefully. I'm not saying that this is exclusive to churches — it falls under the banner of totalitarianism for its own sake.

edited 5th Jan '12 8:11:15 AM by johnnyfog

I'm a skeptical squirrel
Flyboy Decemberist from the United States Since: Dec, 2011
Decemberist
#262: Jan 5th 2012 at 8:11:49 AM

Those people need to get their heads out of the 10th century's late 1800s' ass.

edited 5th Jan '12 8:15:04 AM by Flyboy

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."
Flyboy Decemberist from the United States Since: Dec, 2011
Decemberist
#264: Jan 5th 2012 at 8:27:52 AM

The reason you use to be against gay marriage isn't so much absurd as utterly irrelevant to the proper legislative system in the US...

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#265: Jan 5th 2012 at 8:30:37 AM

Yes, I may have used "absurd" a little too lightly there, Maxima — the point is that your opinion on the matter is insufficient to justify legislation banning gay marriage. Interracial marriage, women's suffrage, slavery... all sorts of social prejudices have been eroding over the last few centuries. Homophobia is just another one of those hurdles to overcome as a species. I don't blame you personally if you feel that way, but I do think it's kind of ridiculous.

That said, I do blame the people who gain power and privilege from trying to legislate social mores on the basis of prejudice.

edited 5th Jan '12 8:31:18 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#266: Jan 5th 2012 at 8:31:15 AM

[up][up][up] Especially TV Tropers. wild mass guess

Anyway, you're having a knee-jerk reaction to whatever it is you think I said. It's clear from their own rhetoric that the militant wings of the Mosaic religions (all of them) are carving up the world in preparation for ...conquest? Subjugation? I'd rather not stick around to find out. The milder Christians out there, the ones who don't feel a desire to meddle on other peoples' lives, are of no relevance here. Of course faith is not inherently bad. But religion is.

edited 5th Jan '12 8:33:22 AM by johnnyfog

I'm a skeptical squirrel
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#268: Jan 5th 2012 at 8:42:37 AM

Secular moral concepts. God is a handy figure to invoke when you need to get people on your side, but the Founding Fathers were well aware of the danger of allowing religious viewpoints to rule a country.

Anyway, I never suggested that religion couldn't have positive cultural and moral influences; the point is that any belief needs to be evaluated in its entire context, not just within a narrow framework (the Bible, the Koran, Wall Street, etc.). Looked at from the larger perspective, gay marriage harms nobody and benefits a lot of people. There's simply no reason (absent religion) to oppose it other than, "I don't like it," which has never been a particularly viable reason to restrict someone's rights.

edited 5th Jan '12 8:46:27 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#269: Jan 5th 2012 at 8:47:08 AM

We ain't the Inquisition.

Actually... the Church kind of was the Inquisition. The whole thing was started to root out heresy within the Catholic Church and it's many followers.

If you want to argue against religious abuse of power, you may need to find a better analogy.

The owner of this account is temporarily unavailable. Please leave your number and call again later.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#271: Jan 5th 2012 at 8:53:54 AM

[up] If only that were how it worked, Maxima. I and many others would be a lot happier with the Church.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheGloomer Since: Sep, 2010
#272: Jan 5th 2012 at 8:56:00 AM

They are a bunch of fucking sheisters, hoodlums, thugs, and degenerate assholes who should be executed post haste. The damage they do to all the world is unforgivable.

To be honest, there's not a lot they say that isn't in the Bible or can be inferred from the Bible...

Ultimately they're doing what they think the scriptures are telling them to, just as much as you are, and if you're going by the Bible alone, it's tough to decide who should be considered right.

I mean, I'd consider the homophobic set that seems to be out to tell people how to live to be in the wrong myself, but it's an issue that often troubles me.

edited 5th Jan '12 8:58:35 AM by TheGloomer

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#273: Jan 5th 2012 at 8:56:32 AM

"True" Christians don't meddle in people's lives, we get involved to help.

You know, it's sorta one of my pet peeves when people trot out the "Real Christians don't do x" thing.

Insofar as I am aware, the only requirement of being Christian is believing that Jesus was the Messiah.

There is absolutely no hard rule in the Bible that says that Christians have to be nice in order to be considered "real Christians", and in my personal experience, if you dig hard enough, you can find a Bible verse to justify anything, and all denominations do their bit of picking over the verses and deciding what is and is not "truth", while deriding the other denominations for picking out different verses to uphold as true.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#275: Jan 5th 2012 at 9:08:22 AM

Starship as a Christian who has no problem with homosexuality I've always been rather curious as to what part of the Bible (well the new testament) says that homosexuality is wrong. Or even more specifically what part of Jesus's teachings condemn homosexuality.

This isn't a rhetorical question I genuily want to know what parts of the bible it is that say homosexuality is wrong.

Edit: I think it was Ghaddii who said something along the lines of "if all Christians practised Christianity there would be no other religion" the teachings of Jesus are rather liberal, after all it's all about loving your neighbour and not judging people. The fact that some people chose to interpret them to justify pointless hatred (just to avoid anyone misinterpreting this I am not saying anyone in this thread has done that) is hardly the fault of Christianity as a belief system.

edited 5th Jan '12 9:15:21 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Total posts: 21,560
Top