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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in the LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion Thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:53:59 PM

Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#226: Jan 4th 2012 at 10:12:15 AM

The state will grant the ability to officiate a wedding to anyone. To the state, the priest officiating it is no different than the drive-thru Elvis in Las Vegas.

How does it violate the separation of church and state if the government sees no difference between the officiants? Who is overseeing the wedding is not important to state business - it's important to those who are being married. The only entity the officiant can influence is the married couple.

edited 4th Jan '12 10:15:26 AM by Completion

Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#228: Jan 4th 2012 at 10:21:52 AM

[up][up] Wait... so, who can officiate at weddings in the USA? And what are the legal requirements?

[up]Since marriage brings with it a host of legal advantages and stuff, it is definitely the state's ball.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#229: Jan 4th 2012 at 10:23:34 AM

Anyone. You just ask the local government and pay for the license to do it.

Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#230: Jan 4th 2012 at 10:25:08 AM

A permanent license, or for the specific marriage? Because if it's the latter, than yeah, that seems like enough government control and the rest's just ceremony...

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#232: Jan 4th 2012 at 10:32:36 AM

That and many gay people are religious enough to understand and respect the other person/group's religious differences.

There's getting equal rights and there's being a dick at the expense of others rights.

Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#234: Jan 4th 2012 at 10:36:01 AM

I wasn't calling him a dick.

I was thinking of a hypothetical situation. Octo wasn't in my thoughts when I wrote that.

Sorry for the misconception, Octo. :P

edited 4th Jan '12 10:36:14 AM by Completion

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#236: Jan 4th 2012 at 11:34:20 AM

Technically all you need to be officially married is a license from the state. The wedding ceremony is just a formality.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#237: Jan 4th 2012 at 12:56:11 PM

Right. For what it's worth, there's virtually no support to the idea that churches should be forced to perform services they do not wish to.

There's been a few cases where churches have run public venues and have had to rent said venues for services they do not wish to, but that's a different story entirely. (The problem is the public nature of said venues)

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#238: Jan 4th 2012 at 1:07:19 PM

Quick question. Since a church can refuse to marry someone on grounds of sexual preference can the drive though Elvis do the same? If so then it looks like from the states point of view there is no difference between the two. Which seems like the way to go.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#239: Jan 4th 2012 at 1:16:32 PM

Sure, there's nothing stopping him from refusing services to people he doesn't like. Well, it's possible — likely even — that if he's not affiliated with a specific religious denomination, he's not protected by church-and-state separation rules and therefore is not allowed to discriminate.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#240: Jan 4th 2012 at 1:42:26 PM

Also, for what it's worth, I believe that there are multiple churches that wouldn't have a problem with performing gay marriage.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#241: Jan 4th 2012 at 1:46:56 PM

The Unitarian Universalist Church certainly wouldn't have a problem with it.

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#242: Jan 4th 2012 at 4:47:08 PM

Several churches do it. I really think it's just a matter of time before it becomes more widespread. People just have to do a better job voting on it.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#243: Jan 4th 2012 at 4:51:25 PM

The big thing about the Drive-thru Elvis is that it probably positions itself as a public business, that it, it openly deals with the public. This means that a list of anti-discrimination laws would apply. Churches generally are not public businesses and as such are not subject to the same rules.

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#244: Jan 4th 2012 at 6:51:23 PM

Well, as far as I know a public business can still refuse to serve particular persons for whatever reasons. I saw a study about this somewhere, that also pertained to gay people. Basically, a business (in this case an Elvis impersonator) can refuse to perform a service for something. The couple in question then has the option to sue for discrimination. Or just go find another Elvis impersonator to marry them, which is probably more convenient in Las Vegas. The people who can't refuse you is the government employee and whichever relevant office handles the paperwork. Legalize marriage there and they can't refuse you the service because it's a government service.

Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#245: Jan 4th 2012 at 8:20:23 PM

Here's the thing with that. For every one congregation that is against marriage for gays, there is another one who is. And if the homosexual couple is religious enough, $20 bucks says they already go to a congregation that is going to accept and embrace them regardless of the government's wishes.

Religious groups can make whatever rules they want to. Some do require counseling before the preacher would even think of a service. If the couple doesn't like it, they go to another preacher.

It's only a big deal if you make it a big deal. You can get married by two clowns on stills on the Brooklyn Bridge and if you suddenly fall off the edge, the state will treat the case as two individuals instead of a married couple just because they didn't have their licence yet. (Insurance, burial, etc.)

If I get to marry my girlfriend, since we're not religious, we'll have a civil servant or a Navy Chaplin marry us. (Military will give a secular service even if the particular official is a certain denomination.)

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
Flyboy Decemberist from the United States Since: Dec, 2011
Decemberist
#246: Jan 4th 2012 at 9:32:34 PM

State should hand out civil unions with all the tax shit, churches can have their symbolic-but-useless marriage, and we can leave separation of church and state alone as is proper.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."
johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#247: Jan 4th 2012 at 9:38:58 PM

[up] Brilliant insight. If only someone had thought of it first.

edited 4th Jan '12 9:39:05 PM by johnnyfog

I'm a skeptical squirrel
Flyboy Decemberist from the United States Since: Dec, 2011
Decemberist
#248: Jan 4th 2012 at 9:43:52 PM

I realize it's already been said. I merely don't see any real value in forcing churches to conform.

You gain more, from an anti-religion standpoint, by rendering them politically irrelevant anyhow. Like a troll; don't feed them, and strip their power to say things and be taken seriously, and fanatics go away.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#249: Jan 4th 2012 at 10:10:09 PM

Church weddings are already symbolic, given that just about anyone can receive a license to officiate at a marriage and doesn't have to be any kind of priest to do so. It doesn't seem to have successfully taken any of the social influence of churches away. That is more a social, bottom up issue.

edited 4th Jan '12 10:10:46 PM by AceofSpades

Flyboy Decemberist from the United States Since: Dec, 2011
Decemberist
#250: Jan 4th 2012 at 10:10:55 PM

This must be made clear, however, as the general public seems not to grasp this...

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

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