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Needs a better title: Bugger The Plot

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Hadashi Since: May, 2011
#26: May 26th 2011 at 6:42:42 AM

It's not exactly that Zeta. For a story to be Plot Postponement (or whatever we call it) the filler has to be mandatory, or as good as. Take, for example the Final Fantasy entry, in this the player must complete side-quests, and side-quests alone, to advance the game.

To take the pirate example, the main plot is just plain ignored because the climax has to happen at the very end of the series, not the beginning.

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SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#27: May 26th 2011 at 7:58:51 AM

I'm not sure if mandatory is the right word you are looking to use.

In every single example on this page, I highly doubt that filler was added by mandate, unless Word of God can show that a work's publisher was unhappy with a work's length and explicitly ordered the creation of additional content that, ultimately, does not add anything to the main plot. Even then, that's already well covered by the Padding trope and does not sound like it merits being split off from that page based on that characteristic alone.

edited 26th May '11 8:03:25 AM by SeanMurrayI

Hadashi Since: May, 2011
#28: May 26th 2011 at 8:12:15 AM

I think you are misunderstanding me. The filler is mandatory for us, not the writer. As in we have to get through it to get to the plot.

For example: If you can't get to the final boss without doing all the meaningless races Zeta mentioned, or if Sonic Adventure made you raise a Chao and complete the mini-games before it let you have a specific level key.

edited 26th May '11 8:15:50 AM by Hadashi

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SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#29: May 26th 2011 at 8:18:10 AM

So you are looking to limit this to specific forms of media that wouldn't come with a Fast Forward or Skip Chapter feature, like in Video Games?

edited 26th May '11 8:29:15 AM by SeanMurrayI

Hadashi Since: May, 2011
#30: May 26th 2011 at 8:31:17 AM

Not necessarily, I think we should consider this case-by case. This isn't just about filler, this is about either trying to pass off the filler as the main body and bulk of something, or a character simply ignoring threads they should be following because the writer knows they lead directly to the climax and has to stop them, etc. The content that happens during the delay isn't, necessarily, bad inof itself (as in the case of the Doctor Who example).

If you can skip through filler chapters to the point where the plot restarts then that still qualifies - much in the same way that you can skip ahead in a book, but that doesn't make the book any less about plot-avoidance since you are supposed to read it in sequential order. It could also be said to count in a game that tries to distract you from an incredibly short main plot by throwing in truly huge numbers of side-quests, though that is arguably covered elsewhere.

edited 26th May '11 8:47:08 AM by Hadashi

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SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#31: May 26th 2011 at 8:45:52 AM

Now you're changing your own criteria. Before you said that this is something that's mandatory for the viewer to endure; now what you are suggesting isn't distinct enough from the existing Padding and Filler Arc tropes.

Tropes Are Flexible, and trying to break up and sort individual works that include Padding by how much space in a work it takes up is just The Same But More in the most useless and unnecessary ways possible; it doesn't matter if it takes up just a few minutes or the majority of the work because, in the end, you're still just talking about general Padding. Likewise, if something is taking up space over the course of entire episodes or installments in a serial work, then that's already its own trope.

I'm not exactly seeing anything uniquely tropable in what you have been saying unless this is limited to a gameplay trope wherein the player is forced to go through irrelevant missions or quests with no option to return to the main adventure beforehand. Nothing else you are talking about can even come to embody that key "mandatory" word you used earlier.

edited 26th May '11 8:58:48 AM by SeanMurrayI

Hadashi Since: May, 2011
#32: May 26th 2011 at 8:58:13 AM

I'll try to explain it in simpler terms:

  • The writer finds themself in a position where the climax of their story will happen much, much sooner than they planned.

  • Instead of going back and revising the character(s) and story so that they are not in a position where the ending has to happen right away (maybe they can't for some reason), they instead find an arbitrary reason why the character cannot progress or simply cause the characters to ignore any strings that lead them to the climax.

  • This results in a large gap which can be filled in a variety of ways, often with pure fluff (see: Polgara). Generally this trope refers to when pure fluff and filler is used, but at the very mildest end it is simply an ignoring of threads that lead to the climax by the author (For an example of that, see the Doctor Who quote).

I'm not sure how I'm going back on what I said. There are simply a number of ways this manifests and it manifests differently in different types of media, such as games, books, and TV shows.

edited 26th May '11 9:04:58 AM by Hadashi

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SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#33: May 26th 2011 at 9:03:36 AM

I'm not sure how I'm going back on what I said.

Because nothing in your bullet points is anything that's "mandatory" for the audience to endure. Putting a block on the player advancing the main quest in a video game makes filler content mandatory for the player. Simply putting filler in a book, movie, tv show, comic, etc. does not make it mandatory for the audience (and it isn't).

And what you are describing here still doesn't sound very distinct from what Padding already covers on its own. Your points can be easily summarized as, "A work's creator stretches a story length by having characters engage in unnecessary activities unrelated to the plot." Padding already covers this, and I don't see much reason why such examples of Padding should be split from that page.

edited 26th May '11 9:09:50 AM by SeanMurrayI

Hadashi Since: May, 2011
#34: May 26th 2011 at 9:11:58 AM

In that case, going and seeing the film isn't mandatory either, is it? I think you are just arguing for the sake of it. There is nothing that stops you skipping filler episodes, but that doesn't prevent them being filler.

Just because you can skip a massive chunk of something doesn't stop it from being a part of the story that exists in-sequence and which - if you play, read, or watch it as the creators intended - you are going to have to sit through. Saying otherwise is like stating that a TV show doesn't count because you can fast-forward through it and skip episodes.

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SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#35: May 26th 2011 at 9:13:39 AM

There is nothing that stops you skipping filler episodes, but that doesn't prevent them being filler.

Which is why we have a trope page for them, already. You still haven't given an explanation as to why any of this needs to be separated from the existing pages and put in a third page that doesn't appear to be unique or distinctive.

edited 26th May '11 9:27:09 AM by SeanMurrayI

Hadashi Since: May, 2011
#36: May 26th 2011 at 9:15:26 AM

As I explained before, this is not Padding. Padding is, by it's very definition, something small that is added to a story, not the majority of it. Padding also doesn't cover circumstances where the stuff that is inserted between the diversion and the climax is actually good. And filler is, essentially, the same thing. We are not talking about one or two episodes, we are talking about every episode between, say, number one or two and, say, the last one.

This is done by ignoring all threads that lead to the climax.

edited 26th May '11 9:20:22 AM by Hadashi

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SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#37: May 26th 2011 at 9:20:00 AM

Padding is not "something small" "by its very definition."

Its basic definition is "a moment in a story which could have easily been removed from the plot without affecting the story significantly." That moment can take up any time length and can even cover an entire subplot (or multiple subplots, if applicable) in a work.

What you are saying now is just The Same But More for tropes that aren't as specific as you say they are in the first place.

edited 26th May '11 9:21:56 AM by SeanMurrayI

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
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#38: May 26th 2011 at 9:21:33 AM

Padding is very different than Filler so please get your terms right. And calling something good Filler and bad Filler puts us in YMMV territory.

Anyway looking at this trope right now I dont see a real difference between this and Filler.

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Hadashi Since: May, 2011
#39: May 26th 2011 at 9:28:34 AM

There is nothing on the padding page to suggest that these tropes are similar. I'll say it again: This is a trope that can result in padding or filler, but it is not in itself padding or filler. This trope is about the idea of *stopping the main plot entirely and keeping it on hold for an extended period of time*.

That can involve filler, Padding, or both. But it is not the filler or padding that counts, it's the writer ignoring the main plot in favour of something else entirely because following the plot would lead to the main climax almost instantly.

This can result in the insertion of filler or padding - but when this happens it is way, way, more extreme than described on those pages.

edited 26th May '11 9:32:08 AM by Hadashi

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SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#40: May 26th 2011 at 9:34:30 AM

This trope is about the idea of *stopping the main plot entirely and keeping it on hold for an extended period of time*.

That still sounds like, "Adding Padding and Filler to works... but stretched over looooooong periods of time."

And it still sounds like a pointless distinction.

The fact that the Padding and Filler delays the work's climax doesn't make this concept more unique; it makes it sound more redundant, given what it is that Padding and Filler already do.

...it is way, way, more extreme than described on those pages.

Again, that just makes this The Same But More, and the Padding and Filler pages are not limited to "small scale" occurrences; it's just an Exaggerated Trope (at best), and those get listed on the existing pages with everything else.

edited 26th May '11 9:43:36 AM by SeanMurrayI

Hadashi Since: May, 2011
#41: May 26th 2011 at 9:42:45 AM

I think I must not be explaining it properly. tongue

This trope *can* and often does result in the insertion of very extreme amounts of filler or padding (which is normally limited to stretching scenes and focusing on characters on their 'day off' etc). This trope refers to when the character should be doing something but doesn't. I.e. it is NOT filler if the detective decides to ignore leads in an investigation, it's this trope (whatever you wish to call it).

To clarify: This trope results in various types of inaction, it isn't the actual inaction itself!

edited 26th May '11 9:46:50 AM by Hadashi

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SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#42: May 26th 2011 at 9:47:12 AM

it is NOT filler if the detective decides to ignore leads in an investigation, it's Ignoring the Plot

Actually, that would be Idiot Plot because such advancement of what would have otherwise been a simple, straight-forward detective story would now be depending on the detective acting like a complete moron who constantly gets sidetracked by things irrelevant to his own case.

edited 26th May '11 9:50:40 AM by SeanMurrayI

Hadashi Since: May, 2011
#43: May 26th 2011 at 9:53:43 AM

This isn't that trope since that trope refers to stories which rely on a whole cast of characters acting stupidly and making obvious mistakes - stories that only exist *entirely* because of that stupidity. For example - a plot that revolves around a character pulling the End of the World Lever.

From your link: "a Plot that hangs together only because the main characters behave like idiots"

Idiot Plot is something else entirely.

edited 26th May '11 9:56:38 AM by Hadashi

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SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#44: May 26th 2011 at 9:56:28 AM

So is the detective ignoring the leads in the hypothetical story you put forward NOT a main character? Would he NOT be acting like an idiot if he willfully ignores leads that help his investigation?

Your example would be an Idiot Plot; the story's slow progression would hinge on the protagonist being a moron.

edited 26th May '11 9:57:50 AM by SeanMurrayI

Hadashi Since: May, 2011
#45: May 26th 2011 at 10:06:19 AM

No, that isn't the case. In its absolute purest sense this trope is about specifically ignoring a plot lead or leads. Nothing else.

Idiot Plot refers to plots where the characters continually react in a very stupid way, see the listed examples for the kind of thing that trope deals with, which are very very different to the ones this trope deals with.

A good general example being "Any Fairy Tale or Aesop which includes a warning not to do something guarantees the character will disobey."

This trope does not require that at all. In fact, the quoted practitioner is portrayed as incredibly smart and actually Lampshades the fact he is ignoring the main plot.

edited 26th May '11 10:07:27 AM by Hadashi

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SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#46: May 26th 2011 at 10:14:27 AM

In its absolute purest sense this trope is about specifically ignoring a plot lead or leads.

Idiot Plot refers to plots where the characters continually react in a very stupid way.

Dude, if a plot sees characters avoiding obvious, straightforward leads that would advance toward an easy or quick conclusion, then that would be "characters continually reacting in a very stupid way" just to delay the story's ending.

If a plot follows a detective, whose very job is to investigate leads and solve cases, and the detective "specifically ignores" the very leads he uncovers to solve a case, then he is "reacting in a very stupid way" to advance a story. The plot is therefore dependent entirely on the detective character behaving like a moron and doing nothing that a real, competent, non-idiot detective would do, which makes it a very clear Idiot Plot.

edited 26th May '11 10:18:37 AM by SeanMurrayI

Hadashi Since: May, 2011
#47: May 26th 2011 at 10:31:40 AM

And yet nothing in the Idiot Plot trope suggests that, and if we followed your logic there would only be a dozen tropes on this entire site. Once again, this trope is about a specific set of circumstances where plot leads or foreshadowing are ignored in favour of another option for any given reason (with the actual one being, usually, plot extension). It has nothing to do with them being stupid, it's entirely arbitrary. If you want to try and read other tropes into this one you could also say it was a momentary Idiot Ball, What An Idiot, Plot Induced Stupidity, or any number of others. But by doing so you would create a precedent for merging all of those tropes into one simply called 'Stupidity'. But as I keep saying, this isn't explicitly about stupidity.

edited 26th May '11 10:43:19 AM by Hadashi

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SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#48: May 26th 2011 at 10:49:47 AM

And yet nothing in the Idiot Plot trope suggests that...

Except for the opening description, "...[A] term for a plot that hangs together only because the main characters behave like idiots. A single intelligent move or question by any of the characters, and all problems would be resolved."

If main characters are willingly ignoring plot leads that would allow the characters to reach a quick, easy, conclusion and, instead, go through some contrived, unnecessary, and moronic route just to avoid having the story come to an immediate and very quick ending (which is exactly what you are trying to trope), then that is an Idiot Plot.

An Idiot Plot is when the entire story is depending on characters doing things that no rational person would ever do, such as the detective deliberately ignoring leads that would allow him to solve his case within the first 15 minutes of a movie.

edited 26th May '11 10:56:40 AM by SeanMurrayI

Hadashi Since: May, 2011
#49: May 26th 2011 at 11:01:59 AM

No its not, the plot is not 'only hanging together' because of stupidity. The plot can be all there and perfectly functional. It is simply being put off for reasons that can include stupidity. Whereas the Idiot Plot trope RUNS on blatant (and possibly comical) stupidity and contrivances. This is different and the Idiot Plot trope (and its examples) supports me on this.

I have to go as there is lightenining outside and I must switch off my router. Please, either accept that this is different or start merging all the tropes on this site that share vaguely similar components

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SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#50: May 26th 2011 at 11:37:57 AM

Please, either accept that this is different or start merging all the tropes on this site that share vaguely similar components

To be completely honest, the way how you keep insisting how your trope can include many different, distinct concepts—from "mandatory" filler content that an audience has to endure to The Same But More of Padding and Filler to significant portions of the Idiot Plot trope to simply "putting off" the plot entirely—it sounds like merging several different tropes and concepts is what you are suggesting, already.

AlternativeTitles: BuggerThePlot
24th May '11 9:24:53 AM

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Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.

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