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FurikoMaru Reverse the Curse from The Arrogant Wasteland Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
KSPAM PARTY PARTY PARTY I WANNA HAVE A PARTY from PARTY ROCK Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
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#77: May 22nd 2011 at 7:30:44 AM

That doesn't change the point that Hell is still eternal suffering, in one form or another. To inflict that on anyone who doesn't acknowledge you is just a dick move. And for the record, "everlasting hellfire" was hyperbole. Personally, if I believed in Hell I'd more put my money on The Nothing After Death.

edited 22nd May '11 7:31:03 AM by KSPAM

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial
Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#78: May 22nd 2011 at 7:38:22 AM

[up]Hell isn't inflicted by God at all. They're there because the alternative would be to be subservient to God which they have demonstrated that they don't want. The suffering is because they're apart from Him which they want. To subject all to His rule would be slavery which not what He wants and the reason that we can choose not to serve Him in the first place!

KSPAM PARTY PARTY PARTY I WANNA HAVE A PARTY from PARTY ROCK Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
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#79: May 22nd 2011 at 7:48:33 AM

They're there because the alternative would be to be subservient to God which they have demonstrated that they don't want. The suffering is because they're apart from Him which they want

Then why is it suffering? If it's want they want, why is it suffering? Furthermore, why is it a one-way ticket? If they get tired of Hell and decide to give His way a chance, why can't they be released?

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial
Sackett Since: Jan, 2001
#80: May 22nd 2011 at 8:01:22 AM

You've never known people to make choices that result in their suffering?

And then keep on making those same choices that result in their suffering?

The reason hell exists, is the same reason evil exists. God may have the power to stop all this evil and suffering, but only by violating man's free will and forcing him to do what God wants him to do.

Of course, such an act would be evil. Therefor violating God's nature. There is a reason Brainwashing for the Greater Good is considered a Fridge Horror.

The Problem of Suffering:

  1. God is all powerful
  2. God is all good

Then why does suffering exist?

This is a philosophical argument often used to argue against the existence of God, or at least to deny God's nature. Yet it is flawed, because it fails to realize that the reason suffering is real is because God is perfectly good. He doesn't force people to obey Him. Instead God tells people to obey, warns them what will happen if they don't, and then lets them choose.

Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#81: May 22nd 2011 at 8:13:35 AM

[up]Sackett has hit the nail on the head.

KSPAM PARTY PARTY PARTY I WANNA HAVE A PARTY from PARTY ROCK Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
PARTY PARTY PARTY I WANNA HAVE A PARTY
#82: May 22nd 2011 at 8:18:16 AM

Well what's the point in that then? This is the problem I've always had with religion. If God is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent, why do we suffer? And don't give me the free will speech. God is the Reality Warper to end all Reality Warpers. He is practically the definition of the trope.

If he's so good and so great, then why can't everyone live a happy life? Surely such a thing is within His power to do without pissing anyone off, and I'm pretty sure no one would object to a happy, peaceful life. After all, he is God, the omnipotent creator, right?

edited 22nd May '11 8:19:17 AM by KSPAM

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#83: May 22nd 2011 at 8:22:26 AM

I am surprised no one has brought up Maria Holic yet. Its the one show that actually did its research and presented religion, specifically Christianity, in a positive light. Set in Japan no less.

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dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#84: May 22nd 2011 at 8:24:06 AM

[up] What he said. In a fear of making this thread turn into a religious debate (seriously, I really hope not because I don't want to have this thread locked), I believe that hell is...just there. Where did it came from? Who created it? I don't really care, anyways.

Now, changing the topic (come on, do you really want a serious religious discussion in an anime thread*

), what makes me curious is that why does NOBODY EVER does research when it comes to Christianity? I mean, I have seen animes that does a good research on firearms (Angel Beats, Noir, Gunsmith Cats, and Ghosts In The Shell pops in my mind) and some other subjects, but none about Christianity. If something is that popular, I think it would be reasonable for someone to do the research.

Also, why does nobody reads further into The Bible and makes references other than Crucified Hero Shot and apples and all? I'd like to see Samson vs 1000 philistines (or allusion of) or Jesus figure unleashing major whoopass with his whip.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Again.

Anyway, I want my Jesus Christ with a whip, damn it.

edited 22nd May '11 8:26:08 AM by dRoy

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
KSPAM PARTY PARTY PARTY I WANNA HAVE A PARTY from PARTY ROCK Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
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#85: May 22nd 2011 at 8:26:27 AM

On a less inflammatory note, here's a good guideline for researching religion for your given work. If it's beginning to look like Index, you're doing it wrong.

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#86: May 22nd 2011 at 8:30:12 AM

Someone brought it up before, but sometimes it's not lack of research for much as it is wonky portrayal; the emphasis being placed on the wrong elements, the spirit of things being misinterpreted.

It's a simple by-product of the lack of familiarity; it's difficult to figure out nuances like that without actually experiencing them first hand.

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#87: May 22nd 2011 at 8:30:27 AM

If it's beginning to look like Index, you're doing it wrong.
That's like saying Uwe Boll movies is not a good movie. For your info, yes I have. I will never forgive my friend who picked it up...then again, neither of us knew what we were getting into...

Seriously, I know this is going way, WAY too far and extreme, but I think I was less offended when I read The Da Vinci Code.

EDIT: Ninja'd again? I should type faster...

[up] I understand that much, but it just makes me curious how such a popular subject never inspired anyone to do some research on them and show it in his/her work.

edited 22nd May '11 8:31:57 AM by dRoy

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FurikoMaru Reverse the Curse from The Arrogant Wasteland Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
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#88: May 22nd 2011 at 8:34:39 AM

I still don't get how anyone could take offense at The Da Vinci Code. It was so blatantly stupid that it was impossible for me to take it seriously.

A True Lady's Quest - A Jojo is You!
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#89: May 22nd 2011 at 8:40:34 AM

[up] I know, right? Honestly, yeah, I wasn't really offended by the novel. I remember watching news about it, and was initially a bit pissed off, then I actually read the novel, and just felt that Dan Brown was not being serious.

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Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace Since: Jan, 2001
Taller than Zim
#90: May 22nd 2011 at 8:44:16 AM

He ripped the plot of an old semi-joke hoax/conspiracy theory.

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dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#91: May 22nd 2011 at 8:47:01 AM

[up] Bah! Who cares about them. I don't.

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Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#92: May 22nd 2011 at 8:51:37 AM

Hell is interesting since there are so many views on what it is exactly. We have the Naraka realm which is a multi-layered Hell where the beings inside are punished for being major asshats. The levels of Naraka are split into two main types Cold Narakas and Hot Narakas. There are Isolation Narakas. An example of what one can expect...In one sort of Hot Naraka one is covered in many burning boils. Said boils are filled with pus that also burns and these boils explode. One lives in a Naraka for 20 times the span of their previous life. After that one dies within the Naraka and is reborn in another realm. One is born here for a variety of reasons. Hence why there are many levels. Also you do not get sent here as divine punishment because Buddhism has no god in control of such things. It's instead the result of a universal law (Kamma) that the gods themselves are affected by. Everything is.

Naraka has affected the idea of other Hells like Japan's Jigoku. The exact specifics of Jigoku (also called Diyu) vary depending on Buddhist and Chinese tradition. It is for the most part a multi-layered area of extreme torment though. There is also a judge or series of judges often times. Yama or King Enma is one of those judges. He is capable of reading kamma lines and dishing out punishment though he has no actual control over kamma itself. He cannot change kamma.

Buddhism also has the Peta realm where one is a ghost filled with great desire and distress and absolutely no way of satisfying their desires. One gets born here because their previous life was defined by selfishness, greed, and desire. This too has affected the myths and traditions of the nations Buddhism spread to.

One can also be reborn as a powerhungry and prideful Asura. A god that is ever filled with a need to fight. They are obsessed with violence, power, and being right.

Then there is the animal realm where you are...well...an animal other than a human. You get born here for being an ignorant bastard who lives only on impulse and instinct.

We also have a Heaven of sorts. The Deva realm is where one is a god of greater power than the Asura. Deva are filled with extreme bliss and joy. They are hardwired to enjoy their existence and their existence is a very pleasant one filled with all the comforts a space god would need. Deva also help beings in the lower realms of existence because things being happy is good so stuff. Deva however have empathy issues because they do not feel suffering. This is typically what prevents a Deva from reaching Enlightenment. The Deva realm is long lasting, but like all realms in Samsara one is doomed to die. One gets reborn here for having outstanding good kamma.

The human realm is just the human realm. It is the middle point realm where one is most likely to achieve Enlightenment or, in some schools, the only realm where one can. This is because, unlike the other realms, human life isn't defined by extremes. There are humans who are or become such and their next lives reflect that, but human life is a middle point in the cosmic scheme of things.

So basically every realm sucks, but the human realm sucks the least because it's the one that can get you out.

edited 22nd May '11 9:15:00 AM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#93: May 22nd 2011 at 9:08:37 AM

@KSPAM: You're missing the point. God COULD create a world where no one suffers or complains about it, but He'd know that it was because He'd FORCED them not to complain about it. In other words, it's slavery, which he doesn't want. He wants to give people the oppertunity to choose Him even though it means that some won't and will suffer for it. You may not like the fact that He gives people that choice, but it's important to HIM and He's the creater so it's His opinion that counts in this.

silver2195 Since: Jan, 2001
#94: May 22nd 2011 at 9:10:13 AM

Someone brought it up before, but sometimes it's not lack of research for much as it is wonky portrayal; the emphasis being placed on the wrong elements, the spirit of things being misinterpreted. It's a simple by-product of the lack of familiarity; it's difficult to figure out nuances like that without actually experiencing them first hand.

This is true, and it applies to portrayals of things other than religion.

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FurikoMaru Reverse the Curse from The Arrogant Wasteland Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
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#95: May 22nd 2011 at 9:11:36 AM

^^ How are we supposed to miss what we've never had?

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Sackett Since: Jan, 2001
#96: May 22nd 2011 at 9:21:56 AM

Well hey, if you think being mindless beings with no free will is wonderful as long as there is no suffering then I think you got your values screwed up.

Personally I'm very grateful that we have a God who actually respects the freewill of the inferior beings He created, and allows us to make our own choices instead of making us into mindless automatons.

But that's just me.

KSPAM PARTY PARTY PARTY I WANNA HAVE A PARTY from PARTY ROCK Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
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#97: May 22nd 2011 at 9:30:09 AM

You're not getting it though. If He has the power to do anything, that means He could remove suffering from the system. With unlimited power, there has to be some way to please everybody without removing free will. And even if someone grew dissatisfied with it, He could still, I don't know, directly intervene and ask the person what's pissing him the hell off? That way, the problem can be talked out and an agreeable solution can be found and everyone is happy once more.

But enough of this! I grow tired of such debates. That and I feel that if either of us keeps at this a mod is going to come into the equation at some point or another tongue

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#98: May 22nd 2011 at 9:31:39 AM

Yes we should instead talk about the actual topic with the occasional comment on the coolness of other people's afterlives. Like Greece. Greece had a cool system. The Asphodel Fields is like the coolest idea ever.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#99: May 22nd 2011 at 9:47:33 AM

[up][up] Exactly. Seriously, let's not take ourselves too seriously.

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FurikoMaru Reverse the Curse from The Arrogant Wasteland Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
Reverse the Curse
#100: May 22nd 2011 at 9:51:21 AM

^^^^ No, I'm asking how it's a punishment to be denied access to the Christian god, particularly since I haven't wanted access since I was like seven and went through my funky-religion-of-the-week phase.

Anyway. One thing that annoys me is seeing priests and nuns in anime stymied by the most basic of arguments. Me or not, I am aware that a decent theological education equips servants of the church with, at the very least, the knowledge necessary to dissect the information presented in the Bible and ancilliary texts like the Apocrypha and come up with rebuttals.

edited 22nd May '11 9:51:47 AM by FurikoMaru

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