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KilgoreTrout Since: Jun, 2010
#26: May 15th 2011 at 8:28:10 PM

"And I kind of have to sheepishly admit I agree. Reading the various elaborations and mini-debates on given examples did IMHO used to be fun and often informative, and while I can understand if they need to be cleaned off the main page proper, I too wish there was still a different place to be allowed to put them. The forums, completely unlinked to the pages, with the dedicated threads often multiple pages long and thus cumbersome to read, and not really structured as reactions to specific things on a page (versus just freefloating discussion of a work or trope in general), they just aren't really exactly the same. They serve a similar purpose, but not really the exact same one."

EXACTLY! *applauds*

And based on my experience with more other forums than I can count, the discussion isn't around indefinitely. After a while people stop posting, it slips to the second page, and then the third, and then the 80th, and then disappears. Whereas if you post something on Troper Tales, it's not only there for as long as Eddie and whoever want to keep Troper Tales around, it's just a single click away.

"Alright, yet another complain-about-the-wiki-being-less-nattery thread."

If there are a lot of complaints about something, perhaps there is a problem with it. But in any event, that isn't what I said in my first post. I suggested creating another page for a work where people can do all of the things you don't want them to do on the main page.

The kind of page where people can be, to use the phrasing on the front page of This Very Wiki, "a buttload more informal".

"[up] The problem is that forum-goers is a small majority among editors...

Can someone bring up the statistic for that?"

Personally, I never used the forums before this weekend.

"Add links on works pages to forum threads. This has been suggested before for other reasons, and is apparently opposed by Eddie himself. (This jives well with [up].)"

This seems like a good idea to me. I don't get why it would be opposed. If we can link to fanfic, surely we ought to be able to link to other stuff on this site.

"I get that, Jeysie. Back when we first kicked up, the discussion pages were more like "And now, in depth..." discussions.

"If we could get back to that variety of coolness somehow, it would be maximum groovy. How could we do that?"

Awesome! I agree, it would.

Here's why I think that people don't get into those kinds of conversations on the discussion page, and why I haven't. Every time I've clicked on it, the first thing I've usually seen has been along the lines of "What do you think about editing the page this way?" instead of "Does anybody have any idea when the Dark Nella Saga is going to be over? Not that I haven't enjoyed it, but it's getting to the point where Lindsay really needs to wrap it up."

So I just naturally assumed that it was for discussion about what to do with the page rather than more casual stuff.

Perhaps if there were a message at the top, like, I don't know..."This is the place to discuss all the stuff you might have been tempted to discuss on the main page but couldn't, as well as discussing how to edit the page and, well, whatever you like really," that would help.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#27: May 15th 2011 at 9:48:50 PM

Head Scratchers and WMG already sound like a bit of this. Discussion pages are excellent as a business place to discuss what to do so we don't mark up the page with "edit history commentary" discussing things. I am not so sure about turning loose casual conversation on those pages as they are very useful for working out the business of a page in a manner that is directly attached. This also keeps us from flooding TRS or Wikitalk with small business that is easily handled by a few brief posts in discussion.

I would rather we have a way to tie a link on the works page that leads to page on the fora that we can keep around and not delete. Possibly install a feature that after a works page is created it generates a Forum thread for that work in the media sub-forum or a button that if there is no discussion yet brings up the create thread window automatically with the work as a title (Or make this manual option)If the thread has already been created it could take you directly to the thread. It allows people to freely discuss their works in any detail they please. This brings people to fora which is a good thing as it gets their attention to existence and it gives people on the for a chance to join a discussion with people who may not visit any other part of the fora in the first place. No sense in further divide of community as a whole.

edited 15th May '11 9:50:21 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
NateTheGreat Since: Jan, 2001
#28: May 15th 2011 at 10:17:14 PM

I'd like nothing more than a 1:1 set of forum discussion pages hardwired to wiki pages. But it'll never happen.

Why can't we have a Natter tab akin to the Awesome/Heartwarming/etc., and you have to be a Known Troper to access it?

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#29: May 16th 2011 at 12:30:49 AM

Because natter is bad mmk.

Joking aside I don't think that would honestly be a good idea.

Who watches the watchmen?
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#30: May 16th 2011 at 12:45:39 AM

Some dude quoting entire stuff from prior posts. Welcome back to 1996 Usenet.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#31: May 16th 2011 at 6:55:32 AM

[up] Not to mention failing to attribute them when he quotes multiple people. Unreadable mess ftl.

I am not opposed in any way to articles cross-referencing forum threads. I think it would be a great way to shift "conversation" discussion off the wiki proper. However, we have been around the block a few times regarding whether it should entirely replace the current functions of the Discussion, Headscratchers, and/or WMG pages. One argument against is the relative impermanence of forum conversation, whereas in a Headscratchers or WMG you can just search for your question/theory.

Oh, and also the forums are High Octane Nightmare Fuel for some people. I don't know why.

Edit: Apparently my typing skills deteriorate when I'm working on 4 hours sleep, thanks to staying up half the night watching Let's Plays of Portal 2.

edited 16th May '11 7:18:37 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
KilgoreTrout Since: Jun, 2010
#32: May 16th 2011 at 8:15:52 AM

Is that not done here? Most forums have got like [quote][/quote] tags, which people use all the time. Since I didn't see anything like that here, I decided I'd just put quotation marks around what I was quoting and hopefully figure it out later.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#33: May 16th 2011 at 8:17:13 AM

It's [quoteblock][/quoteblock], with double ['s. Even if you don't want to use that markup, you can bold or italicize or do something to set what you quoted apart from the text you added.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#34: May 16th 2011 at 9:53:02 AM

While I know we won't ever have a quote button, could we at least get a button to insert the quoteblock coding? Would that be too close to the former?

edited 16th May '11 9:53:45 AM by Willbyr

nuclearneo577 from My computer. Since: Dec, 2009
#35: May 16th 2011 at 10:39:56 AM

[up]Well, it it just puts the text in, that would be different, I kinda like that idea.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#37: May 16th 2011 at 5:04:44 PM

My rule of thumb was always that the Discussion page discusses the page itself, where the forum is where you chat about the work.

Fight smart, not fair.
VmKid Since: Sep, 2009
#38: May 16th 2011 at 7:28:37 PM

Like I've previously stated, we have an entire reviews section that people seem to forget about. I've barely seen a few reviews, and honestly, sharing one's full opinion is exactly what the reviews are supposed to be for. If there's a problem with what someone writes, there's always the Holler button.

In Conclusion: The reviews are where opinions go, although they should still be under Wiki rules.

edited 16th May '11 7:29:21 PM by VmKid

KilgoreTrout Since: Jun, 2010
#39: May 16th 2011 at 10:43:59 PM

Sure VM Kid, but if I can't very well write a "review" that says nothing more than "Was it just me, or were other people here happy when Dennis Farina's character was written out of Law And Order?"

SpellBlade Since: Dec, 1969
#40: May 17th 2011 at 12:05:22 AM

[up] Since you phrased that as a question, you could ask on any internet forum such as this one.

KilgoreTrout Since: Jun, 2010
#41: May 17th 2011 at 12:12:40 AM

True, but I could also review works elsewhere on the internet, I could read about works elsewhere on the internet, I could bring up Head Scratchers elsewhere on the internet, I could probably set up a "Wild Mass Guessing" thread elsewhere on the internet...but I would rather not. I would like to do it here, because I like this place, and I'd like to talk with the other people here about this stuff instead of going somewhere else.

So at the very least, having a link on the main page of a work to a casual conversation/debate thread in this forum is something I'm very much in favour of.

edited 17th May '11 12:13:26 AM by KilgoreTrout

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#42: May 17th 2011 at 12:39:06 AM

[up][up][up]Then you go to the forums and post in the Law And Order thread (or create one if there isn't already). That is what the forums are for.

I am not against having a link to the forum somewhere on the page, though. Maybe in the discussion and/or Jusrt Bugs Me? I understand it should not be on the main wiki (as it has nothing to do with the work itself), but leaving a link where people usually go to (inappropriately) chat seems appropriate.

edited 17th May '11 12:41:56 AM by Heatth

VmKid Since: Sep, 2009
#43: May 17th 2011 at 4:36:16 AM

Sure VM Kid, but if I can't very well write a "review" that says nothing more than "Was it just me, or were other people here happy when Dennis Farina's character was written out of Law And Order?"

The forums are also a place for opinions. The OP seems to be speaking about opinions on the wiki, however, and it's been established that a good deal of people seem to dislike coming to the forums. The reviews are the only place left for this group. You could post your opinions elsewhere, but that isn't really the point of the thread.

Also, I'm all for linking forum threads to articles, but there will need to be some sort of failsafe when more than one article gets linked to a thread.

edited 17th May '11 4:38:35 AM by VmKid

CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#44: May 17th 2011 at 9:41:18 AM

I would like to do it here, because I like this place, and I'd like to talk with the other people here about this stuff instead of going somewhere else.

And considering this site is about tropes, which I can't get anywhere else, I'd rather you not stop me enjoying that luxury by polluting the site with things you can very easily do elsewhere - and just choose not to.

edited 17th May '11 9:41:25 AM by CaissasDeathAngel

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
SilentReverence adopting kitteh from 3 tiles right 1 tile up Since: Jan, 2010
adopting kitteh
#45: May 17th 2011 at 10:47:53 AM

He could do elsewhere, yes, but he'd have to secure an invite for all the friends and people here with whom he talks about it so that the sense of community can be at least a bit maintained. Not likely. It's casual conversation. It's already being done. Barring minot details, it's organized. I don't see the problem.

edited 17th May '11 10:49:15 AM by SilentReverence

Fanfic Recs orwellianretcon'd: cutlocked for committee or for Google?
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#46: May 17th 2011 at 11:18:51 AM

Like I suggested for threads linked to articles they would receive protection of some sort from deleting and would only have a thread generated if someone clicked on aforementioned button.

Who watches the watchmen?
VmKid Since: Sep, 2009
#47: May 17th 2011 at 1:16:04 PM

I don't think that articles should "Generate" forum threads. Instead, a thread should be "Linked" to an article, so that the thread begins with an actual topic to begin discussion instead of a stock message.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#48: May 17th 2011 at 11:06:16 PM

What I mean by that is you click the button and brings you to the thread creation screen in the appropriate area. You then write the OP and thread title and the rest. I wouldn't use stock that would be no fun.

Who watches the watchmen?
VmKid Since: Sep, 2009
#49: May 18th 2011 at 2:13:30 PM

The problem with that is that we'd have to finish moving works over to namespaces before that becomes plausible.

Killomatic TURN OFF THAT LIGHT! from Loli Funtime Playhouse Since: Oct, 2010
TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
#50: May 18th 2011 at 4:07:12 PM

I fail to see the connection. You can reassign threads to whatever article you want, right?

Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.

Total posts: 69
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