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Princeofstar Double Standard Killer Since: Apr, 2011
Double Standard Killer
#251: May 15th 2011 at 8:27:55 PM

Most fibers are undigestible to humans. What evolutionary benefit could it be for our gut to shrink? It is because during evolution we began to eat more meat and our brains grew, so our gut shrunk to conserve energy. Without our guts burning fiber for energy we had to turn to higher quality foods with more available energy AKA animal foods. Meat eating helped us evolve a big brain. True herbivores get energy from fiber. We hardly do.

edited 15th May '11 9:04:24 PM by Princeofstar

I don't disagree for the hell of it. I just want the real truth. Life should be a quest for love & the truth. Tell me when I'm wrong.
Princeofstar Double Standard Killer Since: Apr, 2011
Double Standard Killer
#252: May 15th 2011 at 8:30:41 PM

Biased? but they argue with logic. Logical fallacies hold true. Even if a site is biased if they say 1+1=2 they are right even if the government says it is 3. Look at the arguments. Cite and refute them. The lady starts out with ad hominem attacks but she cites USDA studies and explains why they are a load of s***. Bias does not make arguments inherently wrong. The youtube is more a hilarious lesson to find logical falacies, infact Tom doesn't claim to know any facts, he actually teaches his audience how to approach studies cited in headlines. The youtube is only a lesson in critical thinking so you can look at the studies that are cited by the gov't.

edited 15th May '11 8:34:04 PM by Princeofstar

I don't disagree for the hell of it. I just want the real truth. Life should be a quest for love & the truth. Tell me when I'm wrong.
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#253: May 15th 2011 at 8:33:50 PM

I'm pretty sure that's not how the evolution of herbivory and omnivory worked.

Be not afraid...
Princeofstar Double Standard Killer Since: Apr, 2011
Double Standard Killer
#254: May 15th 2011 at 8:34:44 PM

[up] could you clarify? [down]the title of the site is flawed, but her arguments hold merit.

edited 15th May '11 8:37:56 PM by Princeofstar

I don't disagree for the hell of it. I just want the real truth. Life should be a quest for love & the truth. Tell me when I'm wrong.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#255: May 15th 2011 at 8:36:52 PM

I was talking about something with "raw" in the name, I didn't actually check the site.

Fight smart, not fair.
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#256: May 15th 2011 at 8:45:40 PM

While you can argue that meat eating is useful for evolving large brains, I think your chain of cause and effect is incorrect.

What evolutionary benefit could it be for our gut to shrink? It is because our guts began to use less energy so we could save it for a bigger brain

The reason for gut shinking is not "bigger guts use more energy. Therefore a smaller gut is more efficient. With the energy we will save from this we can build bigger brains".

Our diet changed, therefore our intestines shrank. Not the other way around.

Be not afraid...
Princeofstar Double Standard Killer Since: Apr, 2011
Double Standard Killer
#257: May 15th 2011 at 8:50:12 PM

We adapted to eating more meat, resulting in our guts shrinking, we now get less energy out of Fibrous plant material, so either way we must eat meat which is richer in energy to sustain a bigger brain with a smaller gut which extracts less energy. Spot on with the causality, veganism is my Berserk Button so I may have difficulty explaining due to such a loaded topic for me.

edited 15th May '11 9:02:54 PM by Princeofstar

I don't disagree for the hell of it. I just want the real truth. Life should be a quest for love & the truth. Tell me when I'm wrong.
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#258: May 15th 2011 at 8:55:28 PM

I'm pretty sure that we would have started eating more meat before our gut morphology changed. Animal bodies don't just up and change for no reason if they're humming along perectly fine as they are; a diet change would have caused a smaller gut. It doesn't go "Our guts became smaller, therefore we had to start eating meat"

edited 15th May '11 8:56:42 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
Princeofstar Double Standard Killer Since: Apr, 2011
Double Standard Killer
#259: May 15th 2011 at 8:57:16 PM

As I said: I agree with your causality, my initial statement was incorrect. Meat eating made our body adapt to meat :). I don't see what we are arguing about. [down] I'll Fix it

edited 15th May '11 9:02:12 PM by Princeofstar

I don't disagree for the hell of it. I just want the real truth. Life should be a quest for love & the truth. Tell me when I'm wrong.
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#260: May 15th 2011 at 8:59:00 PM

If our guts shrink, we get less energy out of Fibrous plant material, so either way we must eat meat

Can you see why I'm misunderstanding you? That statement sounds like it says the opposite to what you're claiming it does.

edited 15th May '11 8:59:11 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
Mullerornis Adveho in mihi Lucifer from Iberia Since: Mar, 2011
Adveho in mihi Lucifer
#261: May 16th 2011 at 6:43:13 AM

Any biologist knows that bigger guts are an indication of herbivory and smaller guts belong to species more specialised to food stuffs that aren't so hard to digest as plants, like frugivores and carnivores. Considering Homo sapiens has lost use of its Vermiform appendix in regards to digestion (it still has other uses, but originally evolved as a much more important part of the digestive system, and indeed it is very important for all herbivorous mammals), its safe to see we are no longer specialised herbivores.

Anyways, animal rights movements are hypocrital. Even if we leave aside that they only care about cute animals and that PETA secretly kills millions of animals per year, plants are living beings that feel pain.

A single phrase renders Christianity a delusional cult.
Counterclock Since: Feb, 2013
#262: May 16th 2011 at 7:54:36 AM

Thread hop, though I have read through this entire thread.

So Animal rights huh... I'm all for them, just not right now, I think it's safe to assume that humans themselves need a few more decades or centuries to work out a few of their own problems before we start addressing the problems of animals.

LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#263: May 16th 2011 at 3:59:17 PM

[up][up] Actually, plants do not feel pain as we know it. They have no nerves to detect it and no centralised organ to feel it in.

Be not afraid...
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#264: May 16th 2011 at 4:01:13 PM

[up] For a certain definition of pain though, they do. Most plants react to stimuli in ways that show they can recognize damage and activate defense mechanisms.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#265: May 16th 2011 at 4:12:28 PM

That's true, but I wouldn't exactly call it pain. It's the whole lack of a brain - a plant's physiology seems to be largely automated, X stimulus leads to Y response spread all over the plant rather than coordinated from one location.

But that is off-topic.

Be not afraid...
ninjaclown Since: May, 2009
#266: May 16th 2011 at 4:21:47 PM

More like it can sense damage, but that's it.

Princeofstar Double Standard Killer Since: Apr, 2011
Double Standard Killer
#267: May 16th 2011 at 5:09:34 PM

so if a cow was born without the 5 senses, would it be ok to farm them, according to you guys?

edited 16th May '11 5:09:59 PM by Princeofstar

I don't disagree for the hell of it. I just want the real truth. Life should be a quest for love & the truth. Tell me when I'm wrong.
ninjaclown Since: May, 2009
#268: May 16th 2011 at 5:12:33 PM

It's always okay to farm cows.

LoveHappiness Nihilist Hippie Since: Dec, 2010
Nihilist Hippie
#269: May 16th 2011 at 5:13:13 PM

Without any senses, it could never suffer or feel good, have sense of self or time, or have preferences at all. So yeah it's fine. Cannibalism is also fine in this case.

edited 16th May '11 5:13:30 PM by LoveHappiness

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom
ninjaclown Since: May, 2009
#270: May 16th 2011 at 5:15:47 PM

I'm going to grab a steak sub, back in a jiffy.

LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#271: May 16th 2011 at 5:16:32 PM

They would be rather difficult to farm.

Plus there are more than five senses...

Be not afraid...
Princeofstar Double Standard Killer Since: Apr, 2011
Double Standard Killer
#272: May 16th 2011 at 7:15:17 PM

[up] By 5 senses I meant all senses... [up] No need to invoke this trope

I don't disagree for the hell of it. I just want the real truth. Life should be a quest for love & the truth. Tell me when I'm wrong.
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#273: May 17th 2011 at 12:58:44 AM

Just remember, not all animal testing is harmful.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Mullerornis Adveho in mihi Lucifer from Iberia Since: Mar, 2011
Adveho in mihi Lucifer
#274: May 17th 2011 at 6:07:37 AM

"Actually, plants do not feel pain as we know it. They have no nerves to detect it and no centralised organ to feel it in."

Several plants do have a nervous system of sorts. Some even have perfectly functional notoreceptors. Hence, they can feel pain.

A single phrase renders Christianity a delusional cult.
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#275: May 17th 2011 at 6:09:23 AM

Where are you getting that info from?

Be not afraid...

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