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CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#226: May 14th 2011 at 2:18:41 PM

IIRC, protein is viable for a vegetarian diet, though it's a bit harder if you're a very young child (say, toddler age). It's vegans specifically who have trouble getting protein, because they rule themselves out of so many other foodstuffs.

And "no animals" is supposed to include fish. So called "Pescatarians" who avoid meat but eat fish risk lynching by real vegetarians, especially if they claim they actually are vegetarians.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
Grain Only One Avatar from South Northwest Earth Since: Oct, 2009
Only One Avatar
#227: May 14th 2011 at 2:25:48 PM

From a purely pragmatic stand-point we are designed to eat meat and there isn't any real massive gain to be made from switching to an all plant diet so yeah, bring on the steak.

The massive gains are animal rights and environmentalist activism.

Anime geemu wo shinasai!
ninjaclown Since: May, 2009
#228: May 14th 2011 at 2:30:04 PM

That literally means nothing to some of us.

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#229: May 14th 2011 at 2:36:10 PM

Not to mention that sometimes it's less environmentally friendly to buy vegan products than animal products. Synthetic clothing and shoes, for example.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#230: May 14th 2011 at 2:38:57 PM

[up][up][up] That meas nothing to a lot of people and many countries can't grow food year round, leading to an increase in food prices. Poor people would be fucked.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#231: May 14th 2011 at 3:13:32 PM

N'thing the "it will cost more" vibe. It's an unavoidable reality, and no "a few dead poor people is no big deal" is not an acceptable response.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
StrangeDwarf Since: Oct, 2010
#232: May 14th 2011 at 3:17:44 PM

How is switching to an all plant diet promoting environmental activism?

edited 14th May '11 3:17:59 PM by StrangeDwarf

"Why don't you write books people can read?"-Nora Joyce, to her husband James
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#233: May 14th 2011 at 3:20:34 PM

[up] Theoretically, cutting meat out of the diet means that less resources will go towards raising the meat.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
StrangeDwarf Since: Oct, 2010
#234: May 14th 2011 at 3:25:30 PM

If we all went vegan, the resources would go towards feeding us.

(But basically I thought he meant we're using endangered plants to raise livestock.)

[down]Give me a sec.

edited 14th May '11 3:29:18 PM by StrangeDwarf

"Why don't you write books people can read?"-Nora Joyce, to her husband James
StrangeDwarf Since: Oct, 2010
#236: May 14th 2011 at 3:34:01 PM

OK, I see what you mean. I don't think it's realistic to expect people to give up meat completely but I see your point.

"Why don't you write books people can read?"-Nora Joyce, to her husband James
LoveHappiness Nihilist Hippie Since: Dec, 2010
Nihilist Hippie
#237: May 14th 2011 at 3:37:23 PM

I think a "vegan world" through vat meat is by far the most realistic scenario... If it's going to happen at all. If it does poor people would not be fucked because vegan meat would be cheaper. Now, IMO being vegan is like being against domestic abuse, the issue isn't ever really going to disappear. It's considered an individual choice now because the vast majority of people are OK with animal use. Education is the only option for getting people to lessen the use of animal products. Obviously I'm not good at this tongue, but there's the added fact people tend to become very defensive about it. Many will go out of their way to eat meat when this is discussed. Personally I hope cheap tasty vat meat will effectively end animal agriculture. Relying only on the compassion of others produces almost no results.

edited 14th May '11 3:39:13 PM by LoveHappiness

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom
#238: May 14th 2011 at 3:42:45 PM

Thread Hop: I don't think animals have rights, but I think people have wrongs, and I think cruelty to animals is one of them.

That sums up my opinions of this issue.

EDIT: Oh, and since the Bible specifically states that animals are ok to eat, I conclude that they are also ok to farm.

edited 14th May '11 3:44:49 PM by EdwardsGrizzly

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LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#239: May 14th 2011 at 4:10:50 PM

I've got to say that, although I'm not vegetarian myself, I kind of agree with the point Love Happiness was making. You can't excuse humanity from moral dilemmas just by saying "Animals do it too, it's natural. "

Male animals go around physically forcing themselves on females all the time. It's natural. Does that mean it's A-ok for humans to do it? No.

With the cat example - cats are ruled by instinct. They don't have the empathy or morality of a human. I would call a cat that toys with and then kills a mouse natural. I would call a human who did the exact same thing a dangerous individual sorely lacking in empathy.

Not saying that eating meat is wrong - just that you can't really excuse humans of their responsibilities by saying that animals don't give a damm about the suffering they cause.

edited 14th May '11 4:11:46 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#240: May 14th 2011 at 9:20:17 PM

Just to check, LH, did you notice this post of mine?

joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#241: May 15th 2011 at 6:00:53 AM

Man's 'moral' status only applies to himself. It's wrong harm a human, but animals don't count unless want we them to.

I for one am cool with this

edited 15th May '11 6:03:33 AM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid
victorinox243 victorinox243 Since: Nov, 2009
victorinox243
#242: May 15th 2011 at 5:35:55 PM

I do not approve physically harming animals just to free other animals. Especially if it involves deadly force.

That said, soylent green is delicious.

carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#243: May 15th 2011 at 6:11:46 PM

A lingering question I've had on my mind pertaining to vegans, more specifically those who hold beliefs similar to the OP: how does fertilizer factor into things? Many "organic" products are grown with fertilizers from animal sources.

Princeofstar Double Standard Killer Since: Apr, 2011
Double Standard Killer
#244: May 15th 2011 at 6:58:35 PM

Humans are not vegans. Animal foods are of highly nutritious value to humans. Compounds include Taurine, Carnitine, Creatine, Coenzyme Q10, Cholesterol (it's a potent antioxidant,not an artery clogger), Vitamin A as Retinol, Conjugated linoleic acid, Essential Fatty Acids as EPA and DHA, choline, Vitamin B12, and heme-iron, which are not found in plants. I can explain the science of eating meat. The USDA's grain-based pyramid makes us fat and sick. The greatest nutritional deficiencies in the Third World are Vitamin A, Iron and Protein, and animal foods are rich in these.

edited 15th May '11 7:01:10 PM by Princeofstar

I don't disagree for the hell of it. I just want the real truth. Life should be a quest for love & the truth. Tell me when I'm wrong.
LoveHappiness Nihilist Hippie Since: Dec, 2010
Nihilist Hippie
#245: May 15th 2011 at 7:33:12 PM

"Well-planned vegan diets have been found to offer protection against many degenerative conditions, including heart disease. The American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada regard such a diet as appropriate for all stages of the life-cycle, though they caution that poorly planned vegan diets can be deficient in vitamin B12, iron, vitamin D, calcium, iodine, and omega-3 fatty acids."

You should be planning your diet anyway. The purpose of a vegan diet for me is not to get healthy though, it's an ethical thing.

edited 15th May '11 7:35:28 PM by LoveHappiness

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom
Princeofstar Double Standard Killer Since: Apr, 2011
Double Standard Killer
#246: May 15th 2011 at 7:56:49 PM

The funny thing is I always hear the American (insert name) Association cited for vegan diets. The government constantly let us down and yet for whatever reason no matter how much the government lets us down economically we take their health advice as gospel. They suck at health advice as they do at many other things. Many low-carb bloggers and comedians like Tom Naughton and journalists like Gary Taubes and his book "Good Calories, Bad Calories" show how flawed nutritional science is, using abused statistics and observational studies that prove nothing to make arguments. I understand where vegans are coming from but they should not jeapordize other people's health with an unnatural diet. Organic Farming is the way to go, not because of sentimentality but because organic meat is more nutritious anyway, and as a bonus we stop animals from suffering except when they must be slaughtered for food.

I don't disagree for the hell of it. I just want the real truth. Life should be a quest for love & the truth. Tell me when I'm wrong.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#247: May 15th 2011 at 8:03:51 PM

no matter how much the government lets us down economically, we take their health advice as gospel

1) unless things have changed, they're completely different sections of the government, one being the FDA, the other being congress.

2) "Organic Farming" is a term applied based on those same government regulatory packages.

edited 15th May '11 8:04:05 PM by Deboss

Fight smart, not fair.
Princeofstar Double Standard Killer Since: Apr, 2011
Double Standard Killer
#248: May 15th 2011 at 8:16:52 PM

You will be shocked at the fallacies the FDA commits, Look here for a person who butchered the FDA recommendations with logic.

http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/02/04/the-new-usda-dietary-guideline/ Oh, and here Tom Naughton demonstrates as a comedian how easy it is to bullshit data with observational studies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1RXvBveht0&feature=player_embedded#at=29 By organic my wording was not clear but I mean Free Range Animals allowed to be near sunlight and roam free,which will mean less, but better quality meat. I only advocate a diet natural to humans, don't call me a carnivore, I eat plants as well. The important thing is for us to get adequate nutrition to be healthy. Think about evolution, our caecum is the tiny apendix, and only few fibers ferment in the colon potentially providing 10% of our calorie needs, compared to Gorillas that can get 67% of their calories from fiber fermenting into short-chain saturated fatty acids in the gut. I only wish for people not to go vegan without knowing the risks and facts P.S. Because I am honest I will say to the vegan's benefit that calcium can be obtained in better sources than dairy such as cooked collards.

edited 15th May '11 8:24:56 PM by Princeofstar

I don't disagree for the hell of it. I just want the real truth. Life should be a quest for love & the truth. Tell me when I'm wrong.
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#249: May 15th 2011 at 8:21:51 PM

[up] The point is, you were using the failures of ONE aspect of the government as a basis for a criticism of a very different aspect. That is ridiculous oversimplification.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#250: May 15th 2011 at 8:24:33 PM

I'm aware that the FDA is not run very well.

You're also siting a pair of sites that is A) clearly biased and B)youtube.

edited 15th May '11 8:25:27 PM by Deboss

Fight smart, not fair.

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