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HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#651: Jul 21st 2013 at 6:45:10 AM

[up] FYI, I'm referring to this (note: skip to 6:00):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb9AerguCdk

@ X 2 X

Z.W.E.I. is one of many innocents branded as a malfested, with the malfested witch hunt being orchestrated by Graf Dumas aka Nightmare so that he can gather more souls for Soul Edge. Thus, Z.W.E.I. is out for blood.

It's more than that, here's a full explanation:

According to the game's follow-up New Legends of Project Soul artbook, he fought alongside real-life Transylvanian nobleman Istvan Bocskai (Stephen Bocskay) when he tried to oppose the Holy Roman Empire's attempts to spread Roman Catholicism into the Kingdom of Hungary. History plays out when Rudolf II's (The Holy Roman Emperor at the time) brother, Archduke Matthias, proposed a peace settlement, known as the Peace of Vienna, only for Bocskai to be poisoned by his chancellor, Mihaly Kathay (who was Malfested). Since it was Graf Dumas/Nightmare/Raphael's body who led the Holy Roman Army during this struggle, this is how he and Z.W.E.I first met, and the reason why Dumas wants him dead so badly.

edited 22nd Jul '13 7:38:45 AM by HallowHawk

Demovere Since: Dec, 2009
#652: Jul 22nd 2013 at 2:05:44 PM

The announcement of SC2HD got me thinking: what if Project Soul made an 'anniversary' game of sorts, in the vein of Tekken Tag Tournament, that brought everyone back? There'll be a lot of clones, I'm sure, though it would be really cool if they managed to make even the clones somewhat-different from each other in certain moves, stances, etc. Also, this would enable matchups that canon would deny us: for example, getting the chance to have Cassandra or Setsuka beat some sense into Patroklos, or having long-absent Li Long face recent newcomer ZWEI, or mindscrew people with Amy vs. Viola. tongue

Otherarrow Since: Jul, 2010
#653: Jul 22nd 2013 at 2:35:56 PM

...Thinking on it, who would be clones in a dream match game? Let's look at it. (in the order I think them up)

  • Sophitia and Pyrrha Omega (though I can see Pyrrha Omega getting character divergence if put in the same game as Sophitia. More brutal and such.)
  • Xianghua and Leixia
  • Natsu and Taki
  • Setsuka and Alpha Pat (Though I vaguely recall Setsuka having a few moves where she uses her umbrella, which Alpha Pat obviously doesn't have. I may just be thinking of her taunt though)
  • Mitsurugi and Arthur (unless they use the SCIII Katana style for Arthur)
  • Yoshimitsu and Yoshimitsu II (presuming they get different character slots. From what I recall, the Tekken Tag games don't seem to include legacy characters. There is no King and King II, for instance)
  • Hwang, Assassin, and Seong Han Myeong (I think Han Myeong was a clone of Hwang in Soul Edge? I wouldn't know for sure)
  • Aeon and Generic Lizardman (Well, OK, it depends. They could based Generic Lizardman off the "Lizardmen" enemies from III, which use Aeon's III style, while Aeon himself uses the by now wildly different style from V. Use character evolution to your advantage!)
  • The bonus characters from IV and the folks their styles were based on (too many to list. Of course, are the bonus characters "owned" by Namco anyway? I don't know the deal behind them)
  • Rock and Berserker (unless they use the Lance style from III for Berserker)
  • Mimics (though Inferno has some of his own moves, and Elysium at the very least as her own Critical Edge. I can see her getting some personal moves as well)

For the record, I didn't include Xiba/Kilik and Pyrrha/Sophitia because I feel that the V characters do enough things differently from their counterparts that they aren't clones. Xiba definitely.

Naturally, Kilik would get back his IV style.

I probably forgot someone, but eh. There are a lot of dudes in these games.

edited 22nd Jul '13 2:36:08 PM by Otherarrow

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#654: Jul 22nd 2013 at 2:41:19 PM

I wonder what Zasalamel was up to around/before the Evil Seed.

Unless I get a great job or something, I'm likely, and sadly, gonna pass. Between Final Fantasy X HD Remaster, likely importing the Jojo game as mentioned earlier, and at least renting the Naruto UNS 3 Upgraded Rerelease, plus LAW SCHOOL, my hands will likely be full.

The sad, REAL American dichotomy
Demovere Since: Dec, 2009
#655: Jul 22nd 2013 at 2:56:26 PM

I think I remember Setsuka having a move or two where she opened the umbrella and swept it in front of her as a parry/counter move.

It would be cool if the bonus characters were brought back (except for Angol Fear - she stands out far too much design-wise and backstory-wise) and then given modified versions of the movesets of previous guest characters to make them more unique:

  • Link's longsword and shield for Scheherazade (standard fantasy gear for a fantasy-looking character)
  • Heihachi's bracers for Kamikirimusi (maybe the bracers are made of metal from her old oni's club)
  • Spawn's one-handed axe for Ashlotte (say the head of her old polearm was broken off in a fight with Astaroth I, and she decided to use that instead)
  • the Apprentice's ninjato-esque style for Shura (the Force projectiles could even be explained away as Shura using the evil spirit's power)
  • Darth Vader's longsword style for longtime background character Salia (remove the Force grabs, turn them into normal 'follow-up' grabs)

Ezio's fairly recent and he fits the era fairly well, so maybe they'll get to keep him in the game for his style.

Otherarrow Since: Jul, 2010
#656: Jul 22nd 2013 at 3:41:32 PM

The idea of "repurposing" guest character styles doesn't fit well with me (less so Heihachi than the others though, since Tekken does take place in the same world), though I can see them take inspiration from them (see also: Aeon and Kratos).

From what I hear, Link's style isn't just the sword and shield, and has a lot of moves where he pulls out classic Zelda weapons. So yeah, that'd probably need to be heavily modified. Also, I do think it is a rather radical change for someone who originally had a rapier.

I hear that Spawn's fighting style also includes a several moves that rely on Spawn's powers, and thus would make no sense for someone else to use them without a lot of modifying.

Heihachi's SCII style is very obviously his style from the Tekken games translated into the Soul series gameplay, so giving any version of it to Kamikirimusi has some...interesting implications on the Mishimas.

(I had the PS 2 version of SCII, can you tell?)

edited 22nd Jul '13 3:42:34 PM by Otherarrow

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#657: Jul 22nd 2013 at 5:34:01 PM

[up]I too am against repurposing guest characters. I'm also against the glut of guest characters. IV was overkill, and it didn't even work as a concept in there, since they were all clones or from a galaxy far, far away. I still dislike the "clones only" create-a-soul decision.

[up]Link could use his bow, bombs, and boomerang, as well as classic attacks like his spin attack and diving blade.

I keep forgetting Dampierre exists.


Alright, the final selection of topics for "Crowner Week":

  • Best character (story, overall design & personality)
  • Best guest character
  • Best weapon play style
  • Best music
  • Best game feature (weapon master, COTS, survival, breakable armor, create-a-character, etc)
  • Best Game

I'm still considering "Best costume design motif", but I'd like to be sure if we're all clear on that, or if we should go with one long-ass crowner for Best Costume.

If I had my PS 2 here to take pictures, I might've made a "Best Created Character Design", where each troper can upload and nominate up to three of their characters. Maybe later. If you have pictures, hold on to them, I think we should do this. Also, that way, if you see another troper's character design you like, you can ask them for the costume recipe.

edited 22nd Jul '13 5:36:46 PM by wanderlustwarrior

The sad, REAL American dichotomy
X2X You'll never see it coming... from the Darkness Beyond Time Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
You'll never see it coming...
#658: Jul 22nd 2013 at 7:56:55 PM

@ Demo: Soulcalibur: The Twin Blades. tongue

I must admit, the idea of certain teams having their own Tag Combos/Tag Throws a la TTT is intriguing.

@ wander: Wait, so is "Crowner Week" happening now, or are we just deciding on the topics?

"Just wants a friend but had to give up his ding dong for it, tragic." - AngelLightStar
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#659: Jul 22nd 2013 at 8:02:18 PM

I'll start it in 2 hours (midnight, my time). Each will run for 24 hours. I only have 6 set at the moment; does anyone have a good idea for a seventh, or should six be fine?

[up]I would love to tag team with Talim (no pun intended).

edited 22nd Jul '13 8:03:43 PM by wanderlustwarrior

The sad, REAL American dichotomy
X2X You'll never see it coming... from the Darkness Beyond Time Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
You'll never see it coming...
#660: Jul 22nd 2013 at 8:03:24 PM

If you can't think of a seventh, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

"Just wants a friend but had to give up his ding dong for it, tragic." - AngelLightStar
Demovere Since: Dec, 2009
#661: Jul 22nd 2013 at 8:38:14 PM

Some of the reasons I'm all for repurposing guest character movesets are so 1) anyone who decided to main them in a previous game isn't screwed over by the next game, 2) to give more variety to the characters' weapon styles, 3) to allow them to be used by CAWs, and 4) as a (relatively) less time-consuming alternative to having to build, playtest and debug/balance an entirely new moveset.

Admittedly, one of the reasons I'd like to see Ashlotte put back in is because her design is unique for the setting - a clockwork being animated by mystical elements. Looking at Spawn's moveset, I think the only real changes you'd need to make is giving her a more neutral-looking stance and maybe making her movements less fluid to play up her robotic nature. Heck, Spawn's Levitation move there can probably be remade into... let's call it 'Propulsion' - make it so that Ashlotte instead uses rudimentary rockets to lift herself into the air. And if the projectiles are kept in, they can be explained as additional weaponry her creators built into her to make her more effective.

As for Link's style, the boomerang, bow and bombs could probably be removed with little effect on the rest of his moves. Maybe to compensate, have Scheherazade focus instead on using the larger shield to her advantage - perhaps in the form of GI moves and dash attacks with the shield up?

Kamikirimusi... the thought of connecting her oni heritage to the Mishimas never crossed my mind before. And now that it has, it seems like it's too fitting an idea to pass up. tongue

@X2X: Yes. wink

Otherarrow Since: Jul, 2010
#662: Jul 22nd 2013 at 8:50:05 PM

In case you were wondering, I recall hearing that the Devil Gene in Tekken doesn't come from Heihachi's side of the family. (In that, neither he nor Jinpachi have the Gene. Jinpachi just happened to get possessed by something or other somehow.) So there is that.

I am starting to get where you are coming from with the "guest moveset re-purposing", though one might argue that is still fairly lazy, but eh.

I do think Ashlotte is pretty rad and am glad that she is the IV bonus character who actually gets alluded to in canon (and she got a better fate than "got beaten up by Mitsurugi" Greed and Miser)

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Sabbo Since: Jan, 2001
#663: Jul 22nd 2013 at 8:50:25 PM

Removing Link's items wouldn't have much effect on his other moves, sure, but these are still important attacks you seem to be considering having removed. It wouldn't be a Link clone without something in their place. A projectile, a throwable explosive and a returning projectile. Plus the sword & shield.

X2X You'll never see it coming... from the Darkness Beyond Time Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
You'll never see it coming...
#664: Jul 22nd 2013 at 9:05:59 PM

@ Demo: It's not even implausible since IV had that Active Matching Battle mechanic.

... Guys, we know what must be done.

@ Other: Yeah, Harada said on his Twitter that Heihachi didn't possess the Devil Gene but knew who it began with, that the entity possessing Jinpachi in 5 had no connection to Devil (i.e. his connection to the Devil Gene was deliberately misleading and Jin and Kazuya jumped to the same conclusions in-universe that most fans did), and that the only playable carriers are Kazuya and Jin (Jinpachi, Heihachi, and Lars all lack it). The implication is that the Devil Gene began with Kazumi Mishima, Kazuya's mother.

edited 22nd Jul '13 9:06:37 PM by X2X

"Just wants a friend but had to give up his ding dong for it, tragic." - AngelLightStar
Otherarrow Since: Jul, 2010
#665: Jul 22nd 2013 at 9:09:54 PM

Yeah, that sounds like what I heard. It's not a Mishima thing (or at least, it didn't become a Mishima thing until Kazuya).

I wonder what family Kazumi was a part of before she married Heihachi? For all we know, there are others with the Devil Gene out there...

Also, I liked IV's Active Matching Battle thingy, and was sad that there wasn't a team battle thing that made use of it.

edited 22nd Jul '13 9:10:46 PM by Otherarrow

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#666: Jul 22nd 2013 at 9:17:57 PM

I don't know what that is, but remember to include it in "best mechanic" when we get to that.

The sad, REAL American dichotomy
X2X You'll never see it coming... from the Darkness Beyond Time Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
You'll never see it coming...
#667: Jul 22nd 2013 at 9:19:33 PM

[up][up] Well, Tag 2 is that rare non-canon game that happens to throw out all of these Sequel Hooks for the next installment. For example, the Zaibatsu was using children as test subjects for experimenting with the Devil Gene, and Steve was one of them. Who knows where the plot of T7 will go, with all of that and Junknown going around.

And I have no idea about Kazumi. All anyone knows about her mainly comes from The Motion Picture, which is, well...

As much as I liked IV, they backtracked on so much compared to III and IV. Tower of Lost Souls was nice and all, but series staples like Character Exhibitions and Weapon Master Mode were missing. And then V delivered an even skimpier experience.

[up] Sure thing. But knowing IV's reception, I doubt it's going to win. tongue

edited 22nd Jul '13 9:20:37 PM by X2X

"Just wants a friend but had to give up his ding dong for it, tragic." - AngelLightStar
Demovere Since: Dec, 2009
#668: Jul 22nd 2013 at 9:20:04 PM

@Sabbo: Well, any returning movesets can't be exact clones, otherwise they wouldn't be able to return at all. Aeon got a lot of Kratos' animations and moves, but modified some (no chains to extend reach) and added his own (fire breath, maybe the diving headbutt).

@Otherarrow: if Project Soul somehow got the budget and time to create brand-new movesets, then more power to them. Still, it would be nice if they did bring back these now-familiar styles to expand the roster, much like what they did with Aeon inheriting aspects of Kratos' style.

Speaking of the Devil Gene... would anybody here be adverse to Devil Jin appearing as another guest, to give the moveset an 'official' slot? SC2 already has Heihachi going through time-travel shenanigans, so there's precedence. Or maybe the character could just be an ancient incarnation of Devil or something...

@X2X: Oh man, I miss the sheer content they gave us in SC 1-3. Multiple game modes - both serious and silly, backstories, the weapon exhibitions, dozens of galleries, fan art... Those games were jam-packed.

edited 22nd Jul '13 9:22:44 PM by Demovere

X2X You'll never see it coming... from the Darkness Beyond Time Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
You'll never see it coming...
#669: Jul 22nd 2013 at 9:23:10 PM

Maybe a less cheap (and smaller) Azazel? He's probably been around that long, plus he's apparently the progenitor of the Devil Gene if his dialogue with Devil Jin in Scenario Campaign is to be taken into account.

"Just wants a friend but had to give up his ding dong for it, tragic." - AngelLightStar
Otherarrow Since: Jul, 2010
#670: Jul 22nd 2013 at 9:27:28 PM

I don't think that he'd be back for SCVI, but I'd be OK with him (and Heihachi, whatever) being guest characters in the hypothetical dream match game.

Or combine the guest character without a style to the guest style without a character. No, I don't know how "KOS-MOS fighting with Devil Jin style" makes any sense, but it'd be hilarious.

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X2X You'll never see it coming... from the Darkness Beyond Time Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
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#671: Jul 22nd 2013 at 9:34:28 PM

Seriously, though, The Twin Swords should be a thing. Just imagine the possibilities, like a Double Izuna Drop from Yoshi (either) and Taki/Natsu. waii

No, reverse that. Devil Jin using KOS-MOS's fighting style. Actually, that's a terrible idea. He'd be more broken than Night Terror.

"Just wants a friend but had to give up his ding dong for it, tragic." - AngelLightStar
Demovere Since: Dec, 2009
#672: Jul 22nd 2013 at 9:34:48 PM

[up][up][lol]

[up] Would there even be a difference between the two Yoshis aside from costumes? tongue

It would be cool to get the KOS-MOS parts back, as well as CAW parts of other-franchise characters; both appropriate and not appropriate to the setting in equal measures. No, I'm not still a bit bitter that the modern DLC CAW parts in SC5 outnumbered the era-appropriate ones, why do you ask?

edited 22nd Jul '13 9:36:24 PM by Demovere

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#673: Jul 22nd 2013 at 9:40:13 PM

Maybe if the wiki has a page for certain mechanics, you can link to it, so people know what it is without having to play regressing games.

Dead Or Alive was my introduction to cool tag battles in fighting games. Tekken usually felt too slow for me.

Alright, I'm gonna start writing up the first crowner now, so I can sleep shortly after I vote. I may link it before midnight, it may get hooked after, but it'll be up whenever.

The sad, REAL American dichotomy
Otherarrow Since: Jul, 2010
#674: Jul 22nd 2013 at 9:40:59 PM

Yoshimitsu II has a second sword? However, I don't think he uses it for anything (I think he uses it for his Critical Edge at most?) and basically has it for story reasons (it counterbalances the Yoshimitsu sword...for some reason that I can't recall at the moment. I want to say that the Yoshimitsu sword is just too powerful for Yoshimitsu II to use at the moment, but it does accept him as it's master.)

edited 22nd Jul '13 9:44:46 PM by Otherarrow

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#675: Jul 22nd 2013 at 10:00:34 PM

In 3, he uses his flag as a club when in his Hellcopter stance.

Here's the link to the crowner. I tried not to put multiple of the same character in (so, Zasalamel but no Abyss, for example, but Nightmare and Inferno are basically seperate). I went based off of the wikia's main character page. Necrid will be saved for the Guest Characters poll.

If anyone wants to replace the first names with their full names, go on ahead.

Huh. I've played Soul Edge, but didn't know Mi-Na's dad was playable.

The sad, REAL American dichotomy

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