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ReparedWings Since: Mar, 2010
#1: May 9th 2011 at 1:40:29 PM

(any offensive/not politically correct phrasing is NOT intentional. I'm not a native speaker and would welcome corrections so that I may learn from my errors)

Hi! I am creating a country with a temperate type of climate inhabited by white-skinned people (this is a northern/very southern place where winter and autumn is very dark). The story is basically that of a civil war breaking out in this relatively small or at least "primitive" civilisation, which has not advanced beyond bronze age- technology. The civil war is interrupted by a second culture conquering the area; this second culture is a vast and brutal empire ruled by colored people.

I have come to realise that making colored people the conquerors could easily be interpreted as a portrayal of darkskinned as being dangerous enemies out to enslave the whites. Especially considering the spreading islamophobia/racism in Europe (and other places?) This is contrary to my intention – I was tired of whites being portrayed as technologically superior conquerors and wanted to turn the tables.

I hope to avoid the Unfortunate Implications by including, in the bronze age-culture, customs which my target demographic (Europe) would find immoral and have the Empire react negatively towards these customs.

Any ideas?

edited 10th May '11 1:58:43 PM by ReparedWings

RalphCrown Short Hair from Next Door to Nowhere Since: Oct, 2010
Short Hair
#2: May 9th 2011 at 1:50:46 PM

You could make one side blue skinned and the other green. That would take care of the black/white thing.

Under World. It rocks!
annebeeche watching down on us from by the long tidal river Since: Nov, 2010
watching down on us
#3: May 9th 2011 at 2:11:13 PM

Mix things up a bit. Have some darker-skinned people in the Bronze Age society, and some lighter-skinned people in the empire. Light skin may be unfavorable in the empire's culture, and dark skin may be so in the bronze age society's culture, but that doesn't mean that "unfavorable" skin colors can't exist.

I know there's a trope name for when skin and (especially) hair colors in a society in historical fiction are perfectly uniform, but I forgot what it was.

edited 9th May '11 2:13:33 PM by annebeeche

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.
Yej (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#4: May 9th 2011 at 2:28:02 PM

Politically Correct History? EDIT: It's not that, but I know what you mean as well.

edited 9th May '11 2:28:25 PM by Yej

blueharp Since: Dec, 1969
#5: May 9th 2011 at 2:32:38 PM

I think Harry Turtledove sorta did this with his fanasty-ish Civil War series.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#6: May 9th 2011 at 3:38:26 PM

[up][up][up]FYI, the trope you're looking for is Least Common Skin Tone, which is fairly nonindicative and is likely to be renamed to Humanity Is Caucasian sometime soon (though it can apply to other ethnicities).

edited 9th May '11 3:38:44 PM by nrjxll

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#7: May 9th 2011 at 4:08:57 PM

Be very careful that you don't make all of the 'conquered' great wonderful people and all of the 'conquerors' evil nasty flat villains. Make them all rounded characters.

annebeeche watching down on us from by the long tidal river Since: Nov, 2010
watching down on us
#8: May 9th 2011 at 4:10:13 PM

[up][up] No, it's not. It had an image of a bunch of light-haired people and then a dark-haired woman, and then the caption saying something along the lines of, "Can you guess who is the foreigner?"

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#9: May 9th 2011 at 4:25:01 PM

[up]According to this TRS thread, it is. Or at least, it's a trope about single-ethnicity cultures in speculative fiction, which is what I thought was being asked about.

annebeeche watching down on us from by the long tidal river Since: Nov, 2010
watching down on us
#10: May 9th 2011 at 5:20:29 PM

No, it's more about people of the same hair color in a single region of Europe than anything else. Because apparently blond people never existed in Rome and brunet people never existed in Sweden.

edited 9th May '11 5:21:11 PM by annebeeche

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.
jewelleddragon Also known as Katz from Pasadena, CA Since: Apr, 2009
Also known as Katz
#11: May 9th 2011 at 7:51:47 PM

annebeeche: That's not "mixing it up." That's just doing what has happened throughout Western history. The OP's way is mixing it up, but yes, whatever way you pair skin tone and conqueror/conquer-ee status, there are going to be unfortunate implications (I noticed this myself in a story with a similar premise).

annebeeche watching down on us from by the long tidal river Since: Nov, 2010
watching down on us
#12: May 9th 2011 at 8:38:29 PM

I have no idea which of my posts you're responding to, or what you're trying to insinuate as what actually happened in history.

Okay, you are completely confused by what I mean by "mixing it up". Let me rephrase everything.

The op has:

  • Bronze age village: 100% white
  • Empire: 100% black
This is not "mixing it up".

I am suggesting:

  • Bronze age village: 95% white, 5% black
  • Empire: 95% black, 5% white
This is "mixing it up".

I am also suggesting that "mixing it up" actually happened in history. You had brunet people in fair-haired Scandinavia and blond people in dark-haired Rome, it's just they were a minority, and the hair colors weren't favored.

edited 9th May '11 8:43:33 PM by annebeeche

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#13: May 9th 2011 at 11:46:43 PM

If the conquerors are an empire, it makes sense for there to be a lot of variation in their hair and skin colours. Maybe each conquered country or region is required to supply soldiers for the army, so the army has people in it of every ethnic group.

Be not afraid...
jewelleddragon Also known as Katz from Pasadena, CA Since: Apr, 2009
Also known as Katz
#14: May 10th 2011 at 12:03:00 AM

[up][up]Oh, sorry. I totally misread you. I thought you were saying to just reverse it and make all the conquerors light-skinned and the conquer-ees dark-skinned. My mistake (and yes, what you're actually saying is a very good suggestion).

Ettina Since: Apr, 2009
#15: May 10th 2011 at 9:05:56 AM

I think as long as you don't write it as a Black-and-White Morality story, you'll be fine.

Maybe the conquerors are overcrowded back home, and many of the individual settlers are poor people looking for a better future (owning land of their own was a big step up for many real-life settlers of colonized lands).

Meanwhile the conquered people weren't perfect, they had some long-standing internal conflicts that left them open to Divide and Conquer tactics. (For example, there are two groups with a long-standing war against each other, and the invaders backed one group in order to get the other group's land.)

If I'm asking for advice on a story idea, don't tell me it can't be done.
ReparedWings Since: Mar, 2010
#16: May 10th 2011 at 1:50:53 PM

Thank you, all of you, for helping me out. I appreciate it.

(BTW, the "Humanity is Caucasian"-thing...the Bronze Age-people, though not fairhaired except for a few redheads, are actually unaware that any other group of humans exist at all – or that the world of the living continues beyond the horizon. Small world.)

edited 10th May '11 1:53:18 PM by ReparedWings

ReparedWings Since: Mar, 2010
#17: May 10th 2011 at 1:56:58 PM

Oh! And the trope you're looking for could be the one called "people of hair color" (I'd link it if I knew how)

annebeeche watching down on us from by the long tidal river Since: Nov, 2010
watching down on us
#18: May 10th 2011 at 2:36:47 PM

That's the one! Thanks a lot!

Just write PeopleOfHairColor and you have People of Hair Color. To link pages of a single word, say, {{Rush}} and you have Rush

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.
PrimoVictoria Since: Dec, 1969
#19: May 10th 2011 at 4:55:59 PM

"You could make one side blue skinned and the other green. That would take care of the black/white thing. "

That sorta reminds me of this.

honorius from The Netherlands Since: Jun, 2010
#20: May 12th 2011 at 1:37:33 PM

Have a colored person help the primitive white guys (do you call that "the mighty browney"?) and invert the Mighty Whitey trope.

Or as the others said, just mix it up slightly, have some white guys that are clearly bad and colored guys that are clearly good and everything in between

I am also suggesting that "mixing it up" actually happened in history. You had brunet people in fair-haired Scandinavia and blond people in dark-haired Rome, it's just they were a minority, and the hair colors weren't favored.
IIRC correctly the rich women in Rome loved blond/red wigs. I have to look it up.

edited 12th May '11 1:38:07 PM by honorius

If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied -Rudyard Kipling
annebeeche watching down on us from by the long tidal river Since: Nov, 2010
watching down on us
#21: May 12th 2011 at 2:41:22 PM

HBO's Rome, taking place around the 50's 40's BC, shows high-class Roman women with artificial ginger hair, but I don't think I've seen blonde.

All I know is that apparently at some point in the history of Rome blonde hair was associated with prostitutes.

edited 12th May '11 2:42:21 PM by annebeeche

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.
honorius from The Netherlands Since: Jun, 2010
#22: May 12th 2011 at 11:12:37 PM

hmmm

It might have gotten more popular during the imperial period. The Romans looked at the teutons (and the gauls in a lesser extent) as Noble Savages during that time.

If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied -Rudyard Kipling
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