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    Original OP 
(I saw Allan mention the lack of one so I thought I'd make one.)

Recent political stuff:

  • The vote to see if Britain should adopt Alternative Voting has failed.
  • Lib Dems lose lots of councils and councillors, whilst Labour make the majority of the gains in England.
  • The Scottish National Party do really well in the elections.

A link to the BBC politics page containing relevant information.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 3rd 2023 at 11:15:30 AM

GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#34601: Jan 9th 2019 at 2:55:08 AM

I'm pretty sure the reason Brexiteers are calling people Nazis is based around the idea that any Remainer post-2016 are actively acting to oppress the 'will of the people', therefore they are authoritarian, therefore they are fascist, therefore they are Nazis.

And of course there's a long history of far-right groups claiming that the left are the real Nazis, and hiding behind freedom of speech and claiming anyone trying to shut them up are Nazis and that the Nazis were leftists etc. Anything to deflect from the fact they're the basically a Spiritual Successor to the Nazis.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#34602: Jan 9th 2019 at 3:34:26 AM

[up] No. The "Fourth Reich" talk is older than that. The whole Brexit campaign was soaked in Anti-German sentiments. They got more pronounced though when it became clear that the deal the German car industry was supposed to push through for the Brexiters wouldn't happen.

Btw, "The will of the people" is in itself Nazi lingo. The "Volkswille" was originally an SPD newspaper which got shut down by Hitler, but that didn't stop Goebbels from using the "will of the people" as excuse for his actions.

GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#34603: Jan 9th 2019 at 5:03:16 AM

No, I understand that anti-German sentiment has been pervasive in British culture for a long time. I just don't think that this is where the Nazi insults originate from in this case (or at least, not entirely).

As shown in this tweet thread by Mike Stuchbery, as shared by James O'Brien, the Brexiteers who are doing the harassment outside Westminster are ultimately running in the same circles as alt-right internet personalities (like Sargon and Paul Joseph Watson) and the American alt-right, many of whom have constantly peddled the 'the left are the real Nazis' narrative because of perceived censorship against them and turning into a free speech issue. I dunno, I just see a lot of that dynamic in here.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#34604: Jan 9th 2019 at 5:12:37 AM

Oh there's definitely alt-right vibes in this. Explains why most of the people targeted are women. There's a very ugly misogynistic streak in the alt-right.

Edited by M84 on Jan 9th 2019 at 9:13:15 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#34605: Jan 9th 2019 at 10:23:31 AM

And the ones which aren't women often have the "wrong" skin colour.

RainehDaze Figure of Hourai from Scotland (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Serial head-patter
Figure of Hourai
#34606: Jan 9th 2019 at 9:05:32 PM

One of the funnier things in May's attempts to win support for her deal is "I'll give Stormont a veto!"

Knowing that the Northern Ireland Executive hasn't been able to assemble for like two years now. And the DUP isn't THAT dumb.

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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#34607: Jan 9th 2019 at 9:06:42 PM

She's really scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for a way out isn't she.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#34608: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:04:10 AM

Can someone explain to me what the speaker did what has the Brexiters now complaining? I mean, I get that he allowed an amendment in, but I am kind of confused about the rules he maybe broke by doing so as well as why this amendment is such a bone of contention?

GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#34609: Jan 10th 2019 at 2:14:46 AM

It seems to be that the original motion was worded in such a way that it could not be amended - the motion was meant to be passed 'forthwith' - which under parliamentary precedence would mean that no debate could be held on it or amendments added to it. Bercow basically said 'precedent isn't binding or nothing would change' and allowed it to get voted on - and it went through.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#34610: Jan 10th 2019 at 2:25:14 AM

And then the Brexiteers flipped their shit by accusing him of being biased against Brexit. One chucklefuck apparently brought up an anti-Brexit sticker of all things that was on Bercow's car. Bercow responded that it was his wife's.

One thing these last few years have shown me is just how incredibly immature many of our elected officials are. No wonder the idea of letting children vote wasn't immediately dismissed as ridiculous (though it is) — we already more or less have children in office.

Edited by M84 on Jan 10th 2019 at 6:27:00 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#34611: Jan 10th 2019 at 3:28:58 AM

I think it's fair to say that he is most likely a Remainer - whether that has affected his impartiality is another matter. But he's been on a trend in favour of giving power to parliament over government and to backbenchers over ministers for a while. And given the recent historical balance in that regard, I think it's a balance patch that is sorely needed. Governments have been able to count on the backbenchers to follow their lead and make up the numbers too easily for too long. The backbenchers should be ideally holding the government's feet to the fire on a consistent basis. And that's what this decision does.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#34612: Jan 10th 2019 at 4:43:13 AM

Corbyn’s going for an election.

He’d do better for the country if he pushed for a second refendum. In the first place, by the time any election happens, there will no longer be any time to change course on Brexit - if he wins, all he’ll have done is made his party ludicrously unpopular by forcing it to preside over a policy that they don’t want and already know will be disastrous. Secondly, since he hasn’t taken an openly pro-Remain stance, Remainers can’t have any confidence that electing him will advance the policies they want.

Moreover, as several people on this thread have pointed out, the electorate includes some Labour Leavers and Tory Remainers. So if there’s to be a vote, it’s better to have one on the crucial question at hand - does Britain go ahead with Brexit or not, given that the options are no deal, May’s deal or staying in the EU? - so that voters’ preferences are clear, rather than trying to infer voters’ policy preferences from the party they vote for.

Unless Corbyn suspects that there’s a pro-Brexit majority but that Labour’s policies on matters other than Brexit are a lot more popular than the Tories’, making this the best way to get Laboyr elected. But even then, nothing he’s said or done indicates that he has the will to flat-out cancel Brexit without a second referendum, and there isn’t time for both an election and a referendum, so getting Labour into power wouldn’t prevent Brexit.

Edited by Galadriel on Jan 10th 2019 at 7:45:37 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#34613: Jan 10th 2019 at 5:00:35 AM

Even worse, he is going for an election on the promise of "renegotiation", not on the promise of supporting a people's vote.

And no, Corbyn, the UK can't extend article 50. The UK can revoke it whenever they want, but to extend it, they need the permission of every single EU country. And the EU has been pretty clear that they will only extend for a fundamental political change - meaning the chance that the UK will revoke article 50. That is not what Corbyn is running on, so there is no reason for the EU to extend anything. Because even if Corbyn wants to go for a Norway option (or whatever fantasy arrangement he has in mind), that won't change the conditions of the withdrawal agreement.

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#34614: Jan 10th 2019 at 5:02:19 AM

People, British Tropers, have repeatedly noted that organising a second Referendum is a far more time consuming process than a snap election due to the nature of the British systems.

"You can reply to this Message!"
Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#34615: Jan 10th 2019 at 5:20:42 AM

That only counts as an excuse though though if he makes the election a plebiscite about Brexit.

RainehDaze Figure of Hourai from Scotland (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Serial head-patter
Figure of Hourai
#34616: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:05:28 AM

Oh my god, this fucking conversation again?

Look, unless you're going to say something new about it, just don't bother bringing it up.

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GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#34617: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:08:01 AM

Isn't Corbyn still following the plan laid down in the conference? Just checking.

However, the main two reasons I can see for calling a GE rather than a second referendum is that the numbers aren't necessarily there for a second referendum in parliament - Tory revolts are notoriously rare after all, and that you don't necessarily want the Tories to actually have control over the referendum - especially over what questions are posed (a Tory run second referendum might omit the choice to Remain for example).

Edit: [up] yeah, I was starting to wonder if people were actually reading the thread...

Edited by GoldenKaos on Jan 10th 2019 at 2:09:08 PM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#34618: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:09:57 AM

[up]Yes!

Which is why it bugs me when people get so sniffy about it. <sighs>

He's doing what he said he'd do: what the conference voted on. And for eminently sensible reasons embedded in parliamentary procedure.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Jan 10th 2019 at 3:41:36 PM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#34619: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:38:32 AM

As pointed out we don’t have the time for another referendum, the only way to stop Brexit is for us to have a general election, for Labour to win it and then cancel Brexit.

That’s the only way, anything that leaves the Tories in a majority means a hard Brexit, it always has.

I don’t get why some people keep insisting we try and trust the tories, they can’t be trusted, we can’t stop Brexit as long as they have a commons majority.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#34620: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:40:48 AM

They probably overestimate Tory Remainers and the Tories who are against Hard Brexit.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#34621: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:52:18 AM

There are no Tory Remainers or Tory opposers to a Hard Brexit, to be a Tory at this point is to support a Hard Brexit.

Tory voters are Tories first, remainers a distant second, they will fall in line and support the party, no matter what. They’d rather see us ruined under a Hard Brexit than see Corbyn raise the cooperate tax rate.

It’s the same with Tory M Ps, they are loyal to the party first, the only real rebel in Ken Clark, that’s it, every other Tory MP is committed to the leadership to the point where they will allow a Hard Brexit.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#34622: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:54:35 AM

[up]Well, there was that Conservative MP Anna Soubry who is for a second referendum and was called a Nazi for it by Brexiteers. The one you assumed was called a Nazi for being a Brexit supporter.

Edited by M84 on Jan 10th 2019 at 10:57:31 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#34623: Jan 10th 2019 at 7:04:49 AM

I think some Tories have gone on record in saying they'll rebel if they see May aiming the ship squarely at No Deal. And of course, the recent defeats in the commons for May occurred only because some Tories rebelled. We shouldn't bank on Tories regularly disobeying the whip because historically they don't. However, a few have been doing so in the past few days and weeks, and so I don't think it's realistic to expect that the Tories will uniformly vote like robots to back whatever May says, because there's precedence building now of backing up their rebellious words with (some) actual action. Then again, there isn't nearly enough precedence to rely on them either.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
DeathorCake Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#34624: Jan 10th 2019 at 7:21:19 AM

[up][up]

According to The Public Whip, which is a site that tracks MP's votes and whether they were in agreement with government policy Soubry has only voted for the europhile option 44% of the time.

Of the hundred-and-something votes on Brexit specifically she voted with the government over 80% of the time. I personally don't have time to comb through two dozen votes and figure out which of those ones were important and which of them were just standard procedure or otherwise minor business. Yes, you can probably trust Anna Soubry to vote for a second referendum if you have Remain on the ballot, but as far as I know she is one of the most europhilic Tory M Ps and the rest of the so-called rebel bloc have been decidedly flaky. I don't think either side can rely on a decisive turnout from that lot.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#34625: Jan 10th 2019 at 7:25:02 AM

The EU has already signalled that both a change of government and a second referendum would be grounds for an Article 50 extension. Corbyn would have time to do what he wants either way.

As for why he's prioritising renegotiation over a second referendum, that comes back to the crisis of legitimacy the Brexit referendum plunged us into. Basically, even taking the fraud and foreign interference into account, the unfortunate truth is that a referendum is a more democratically representative institution than Parliament - the voters get exactly the result they vote for, and precisely the policy they vote for, as opposed to a package of policies that may or may not be delivered by a third party who has a seat majority despite the fact that they almost certainly didn't win an electoral majority (and who probably also got as far as they did thanks to racist far-right propaganda by a malicious foreign power, or, as we call it over here, the front page of the Sun). In other words, while the referendum was only supposed to be advisory, Cameron put into play a process that had more authority vested in it than any elected politician.

Corbyn appears to be keenly aware of this, and of how serious a problem it would be for elected politicians to tell the people they answer to that they can't have what they asked for after decades of growing anger and disenfranchisement. As such, his sttrategy appears to be to only go for a second referendum after having a serious, proper go at Brexit so they can genuinely say to the public 'we're really sorry, we tried everything, now can you please reconsider?'. It's also worth noting that the paid polls parties can get are far higher-quality and more reliable than the crappy public polls we get, so there is a genuine possibility that Labour HQ knows something we don't about the consequences of going full Remain.

What's precedent ever done for us?

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