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DeathorCake Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Oct 8th 2018 at 1:32:10 PM

[up]

Quite a few countries are fairly corrupt and dodge a lot of taxes, this does not usually cause a loss of a third of national income. The more taxes they managed to collect the less money would be in the economy, more jobs lost, more benefits to pay, worse deficit. We have two centuries of evidence that growth cures debt, cuts make it proportionally bigger.

Quite frankly they should have just defaulted fairly early on and let the British, French and German governments clean up their own messes re. the creditor banks. Anyway, enough about the Greeks in the Britpol thread.

Edited by DeathorCake on Oct 8th 2018 at 8:45:34 AM

Oct 8th 2018 at 1:56:39 PM

[up] Please, money which is in Switzerland is NOT doing any good for the local economy. Greece acted outright offended when Germany gave them the data set of tax dodgers (if I remember correctly, one German state government bought the disk to get their own tax dodgers - btw, very profitable business, each time rumour about a new disc are heard a lot of people suddenly remember that they forgot to tell the fiscus something - and was ready to share the data about Greek tax dodgers which were also on the list for free) and as far as I know, they never acted on the information. Wonder why.

Anyway, Greece is certainly not a reason for the UK to leave. I mean the UK was all for "let them go bust, it's not our problem".

Oct 8th 2018 at 2:16:54 PM

I'm having dj vu to the Economics thread.

RWBY Quotes Sandbox
RainehDaze from Scotland Relationship Status: Mu
Oct 8th 2018 at 2:26:25 PM

Arguing about the specifics of who's responsible for what and whether it would change doesn't mean reasons don't exist. Just not the reasons anyone was using.

"Stay the hell away from the Euro" is probably the best idea for most countries, though.

I STILL LIVE
DrunkenNordmann from Exile
Oct 8th 2018 at 3:02:09 PM

[up] "Stay away from the Euro if your economy can't support it", you mean.

Which isn't actually that difficult - remember that Greece's government cooked the books to get into the Euro zone.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Oct 8th 2018 at 12:02:50 PM

"A witty saying proves nothing."
RainehDaze from Scotland Relationship Status: Mu
Oct 8th 2018 at 3:14:46 PM

Even if you can, I'm not sure I'm a fan of offloading monetary policy to a body with no accountability to you.

I STILL LIVE
KnightofLsama Servant of the Golden Lady of Chaos from The Sea of Chaos Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
Servant of the Golden Lady of Chaos
Oct 8th 2018 at 3:43:15 PM

I think someone made a Youtube vid about how a lot of the things Leavers claimed were reasons to leave the EU were things the UK pushed in the first place.

That sounds like a mighty interesting video...

You mean this one?

Welcome to the Sea of Chaos
Oct 9th 2018 at 2:48:36 AM

As I said "Stay away from the Euro" isn't really relevant for the UK since they were never part of it while ALSO being able to reap all the benefits of it. They make billions each year by using the passporting rights aso they have regarding the Euro.

M84 Freedom is the right of all sentient beings Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Freedom is the right of all sentient beings
Oct 9th 2018 at 2:52:09 AM

[up][up]Nope. I can't find it now. And trying to search for it on Youtube is flooding me with tons of Pro-Brexit bullshit.

I think someone posted it in this thread a long while back, but I don't know which page.

[down]No, it wasn't one of those.

Edited by M84 on Oct 9th 2018 at 6:25:36 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Oct 9th 2018 at 3:18:15 AM

Maybe a Yes minister clip?

RainehDaze from Scotland Relationship Status: Mu
Oct 9th 2018 at 4:35:37 AM

As I said "Stay away from the Euro" isn't really relevant for the UK since they were never part of it while ALSO being able to reap all the benefits of it. They make billions each year by using the passporting rights aso they have regarding the Euro.

I was speaking in general, not about the UK specifically.

I STILL LIVE
Oct 9th 2018 at 4:48:09 AM

Yeah, but this started out as a discussion about good reasons for the UK to leave the EU and the Euro was brought up. Which makes no sense. If anything the Euro is a reason to stay because the UK gets all the Euro business without having to carry any of the risks.

On a different note...now that the first poisoned shellfish turned up in the US, is there a chance that the UK will stop fracking? Before it destroys our fishing waters?

Edited by Swanpride on Oct 9th 2018 at 5:00:56 AM

Oct 9th 2018 at 5:59:16 AM

One of the things are the slightly bizarre pieces of legislation going through around content control for the Internet - the "banning memes" piece. That said, I can equally envisage our own government implementing something similar if we leave anyway.

The move towards increased federalisation could also be posited as a reason to leave - it's a longer term goal - and one that, these days, I'm finding myself not that opposed to - considering the state of our own government.

Another reason is that the EU is separate from Germany and France - Tusk and Barnier... they are not heads of state. The EU is a bureaucratic mess. It moves between two locations regularly and reform is not easy. On that perspective alone it is possibly a good reason to divest before it becomes too bloated and essentially a second, localised UN...

The CAP isn't great either - the intent behind it was, but the impact isn't brilliant. Family friends in farming find themselves remarkably restricted and bound by elements of it that don't seem to be entirely great for us. It's designed (At least initially) to be pro France. But dairy farmers have been ridiculously impacted and are having to farm dairy herds more aggressively to keep up with demand / prices. This in turn has a knock on impact for animal welfare, antibiotic intake etc.

But they aren't ENTIRELY compelling reasons - as mentioned above, a lot of the methods and austerity they imposed on the Med was a set of rules that the local nations then didn't implement fully due to their own local corruption / culture.

The biggest hurdle for the EU in the short term is that, as a POLITICAL body, it sometimes forgets the clash of cultures, attitudes and local approaches as it homogenises. And assuming that a policy is great across the entirety of the continent. But some of that is down to local governments not adjusting legislation locally (SEE: The U Ks lacklustre approach to the built in mechanisms on FOM and immigration... we didn't use them and then blamed the EU...)

Oct 9th 2018 at 6:10:44 AM

[up] Considering the slogan of the EU, I doubt that they will ever forget this.

Oct 9th 2018 at 6:25:56 AM

True - the British (READ - English and some elements of NI) Establishment has acted with hideous short sightedness and contrary attitudes. Not a single statesperson among them. They don't even align to the faintest measure of leadership. We definitely don't align to continental attitudes (mostly) though it seems there is a trend for Right wing movements across the continent...

Now, I understand mob mentality, or group think - if you're in a group and the prevailing opinion is one way, it is terrifyingly hard to push against it; it's easier to get swept up into it, to absorb it and adopt it as if they were, honestly, your own thoughts. And it's a reason why this looks like a careening train wreck. But the sheer level of doubling down and shouting down all the evidence is terrifying.

I can (Vaguely) understand the objections or the half arguments around the E Us resistance - it fits an internal narrative. And the EU has been surprisingly flexible on things to a point. But it has its position and cannot move beyond it.

I used to (many many MANY years ago) support leaving the EU. But that was borne of a lack of understanding and a bit of blind patriotism. Travel, wider reading, meeting people - that got rid of those ideas. The EU is a bloated sometimes inscrutable thing... and yet the pros in membership and the ease on wider bureaucracy it has brought outweigh a lot of the cons.

I just don't know what the agenda of the right wing elements are - their whole remit seems to be to rip things apart. To try economic models we know don't work. Honestly, it's all a bit knackering.

M84 Freedom is the right of all sentient beings Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Freedom is the right of all sentient beings
Oct 9th 2018 at 7:18:29 AM

[up]The rightwing agenda is a combination of "fuck foreigners" and disaster capitalism (the richer rightwingers anyway) fueled by a British Empire nostalgia.

Nationalism is an ugly, ugly thing.

Edited by M84 on Oct 9th 2018 at 10:18:08 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Oct 9th 2018 at 8:13:54 AM

It taps into that monkey-tribal brain element of instant gratification; that bit that wants to punch our frustrations. Which is why it tends to burn itself out - you run out of things to punch down on and end up beating up each other.

Oct 9th 2018 at 8:14:15 AM

Perhaps we should start to celebrate the 9th of Mai. That happens to be Europatag.

Also, just in case some here don't know, the official Motto of the EU is "In Varietate Concordia" - United in Diversity. That's what I meant when I mentioned that the EU certainly doesn't forget the diversity aspect anytime soon (especially since people who are actually working for the EU are in contact with people from different states and regions every single day. That is after all the point, to have a place to talk with each other so that you have no reason to war against each other).

I feel this aspect of the EU is forgotten way too often. It is a peace project.

GoldenKaos Soli Deo Gloria from Ynys y Cedyrn - Europa Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
Soli Deo Gloria
Oct 10th 2018 at 5:03:01 AM

Which is why it's very worrying that idiots like Boris and JRM keep using militaristic and jingoistic language.

Cenedl Heb Iaith - Cenedl Heb Urddas
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
Oct 10th 2018 at 5:14:16 AM

Thankfully, the chances of an actual EU Vs UK war are virtually nil.

I feel even if PM Bo Jo goes totally off the deep end, the Royal Navy would just dump him into the Channel

"You can reply to this Message!"
Oct 10th 2018 at 5:24:05 AM

Hopefully you are right. But I would never underestimate how pumped up people can get when they are facing economical hardship and desperately want someone to blame.

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
Oct 10th 2018 at 5:27:53 AM

That assumes he'd get all of the UK behind that, and I'm reasonably sure half of NI and Scotland would rather blame England than the EU.

Naw, the bigger worry is Ireland and whatever nasty is gonna creep out if a Border really goes up because I can see the Tory's going Black and Tans 2.0 if shit's going belly up there.

Edited by 3of4 on Oct 10th 2018 at 2:30:37 PM

"You can reply to this Message!"
Oct 11th 2018 at 7:08:45 AM

The Army, unfortunately, is pretty happy to throw its lot in. Whilst serving, it was SLIGHTLY less right wing as an institution than the Tories and didn't like committing to impossible odds. But there are enough buffoons in the MOD who'd see a political chance...

And the rank and file are, to put it bluntly, drawn from the deprived areas of the UK... of course, the Scots regiments may tell them to bung it, but the Army at least (And certain Regiments more than others) would be a bit... zealous. The attitude towards civvies, "scroungers", etc isn't great. Whilst The Sun is banned in a lot of officers messes, it isn't in Corporals or Sergeants Messes.

I can see some squaddies being behind the idea of thumping "lazy civvies". Most junior officers are savvy enough not to be idiots... but even my ilk were a pretty even split between moderates and those in love with the idea of uniform and romanticising the history of the military.

Though I very much HOPE our leaders don't try to play that card... I don't think they're charismatic enough to sell the idea of a conventional land war against Europe. If only from the idea of how the hell could we prosecute it... unless we asked Trump. And crazy as he is, I don't see him doing that.

HamsterKing Dinosaur Supervisor from Orbiting Uranus Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
Dinosaur Supervisor
Oct 11th 2018 at 9:31:05 AM

Some very disturbing news for my first ever tv tropes post. Met Police don't want to investigate vote leave because of "political sensitivities"

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/james-cusick-adam-ramsay/met-police-stall-brexit-campaign-investigations-claiming-polit

Also in relation to Jerak Laz last post this photo of Stephen Yaxley Lennon (Tommy Robinson) posing with squashes. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/11/tommy-robinson-photos-britis

Is it just me or is Day of the Jackboot/It Couldn't Happen Here becoming defictionalized in the UK?

Edited by HamsterKing on Oct 11th 2018 at 5:51:04 PM

HamsterKing Dinosaur Supervisor from Orbiting Uranus Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
Dinosaur Supervisor
Oct 11th 2018 at 9:53:21 AM

Uh I meant "squaddies" not "squashes".


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