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FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#1: May 2nd 2011 at 10:56:08 PM

Continuing discussion from "Edit Banned [...]":

Needed: Smarter way to block dickheads than blocking their IP addresses.

Needed: Some way to make a editing white list that will welcome new people.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#2: May 2nd 2011 at 11:00:44 PM

Oh, hi. More jargon.

"White list" means a list of people who are permitted to edit. A "black list" is how we now ban dickheads. If we (the system, that is) knows their handle or IP or certain other things about them and we know also that they are a dickhead, we chuck 'em out.

edited 2nd May '11 11:04:36 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
SpellBlade Since: Dec, 1969
#3: May 2nd 2011 at 11:01:34 PM

Idea, not sure how feasible:

A new account has its first few edits automatically reported to a mod for screening. This wouldn't necessarily block the user from editing, it'd just inform the staff about the troper, and someone can intervene or something if needed.

FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#4: May 2nd 2011 at 11:08:45 PM

Good gravy! We get about 1250 new handles a day. That is not quite one per second, but it is damned close.

The mods have lives.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
SpellBlade Since: Dec, 1969
Unknownlight Since: Aug, 2009
#6: May 2nd 2011 at 11:21:05 PM

Well, I haven't thought of a way to perma-ban deliberate trolls (unfortunately, people can get new IP addresses) I do like the idea of people having to pass a spelling/grammar test to make an account.

I'm not sure how well this specific idea would work in practice, but I'm just throwing ideas out there: Say we have a list of a dozen or so sentences with terrible grammar that are shown to people when they make a new handle. Underneath the sentence is a text box with the terrible-grammar-sentence automatically copy-pasted into it so that people only need to fix the mistakes rather than type everything out again. So, for example:

"at there farm, alice and bob have cows chickens and pigs. they also gots some snakes their 2."

Would have to be fixed to read:

"At their farm, Alice and Bob have cows, chickens, and pigs. They also have some snakes there too."

Meh. It was the first thing that came to my mind. Depending on the creativity of the sentence, you can fit a lot of tests into it, like the sentence above testing if the user knows the difference between "there" and "their".

CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#7: May 2nd 2011 at 11:22:50 PM

That's... a little over one a minute.

This one just can't be done by the mods/admins- it'll have to be automated.

I'm seconding the idea of a grammar test. It might alienate new, non-English speaking Tropers, but if they're not confident enough in their grammar skills, well- they're going to get called out on their grammar anyway.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
Unknownlight Since: Aug, 2009
#8: May 2nd 2011 at 11:24:55 PM

"Didn't pass the test? Come on over to this thread and we'll try to help you out!"

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#9: May 2nd 2011 at 11:33:13 PM

This would be just annoying and would scare off new editors. I know I wouldn't even bother trying if was with me.

Unknownlight Since: Aug, 2009
#10: May 2nd 2011 at 11:37:02 PM

Mmm...true enough.

What about if a sentence randomly has a few words replaced with drop-down boxes where you have to choose the correct spelling/grammar of the word? Only like three boxes though, so it's not annoying or time-consuming.

edited 2nd May '11 11:37:51 PM by Unknownlight

Meophist from Toronto, Canada Since: May, 2010
#11: May 2nd 2011 at 11:43:49 PM

The basic idea would be to have the black list of handles and ip address(and ip ranges) that we have now, and, in addition, a white list of handles that would have access despite being on a black-listed ip. The rest of the handles would be on a "grey list", which would have access until they're black-listed or on a black-listed ip.

I think that's the idea of a white list, right?

Helpful Scripts and Stylesheets here.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#12: May 2nd 2011 at 11:44:37 PM

An editor only has to get white listed once.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Haven Planescape Hijack Since: Jan, 2001
Planescape Hijack
#13: May 2nd 2011 at 11:46:58 PM

That sounds like it'd be difficult to automate, due to multiple ways to fix a sentence which would be just as valid. For instance, in that example they might choose "They also have some snakes there, too" instead of "They also have some snakes there too".

So, whitelisting. I assume user accounts have certain variables that can be set by administration: edit banned, forum banned, wiki moderator, forum moderator, cutmaster, curator, and presumably others. And variables can be applied to IP ranges as well, separately from user accounts. And they can also be applied to other things, most of which users aren't aware of so that they can't be exploited to get around bans—apparently passwords are included in this, though.

Anyway, currently the entire point is if one facet—account, IP address, password, or whatever other means are used—has "banned" toggled on for it, then the account is banned. What if you created a new variable for user accounts, one which, when toggled on, would allow the account's variables (the relevant one being their banned/not banned status) to override or ignore any other ban variables? Presumably, you would make it so only you or Janitor could set the whitelist variable.

I'm not very technically minded, so I apologize if none of this is coherent or helpful.

Productivity is for people without internet connections. -Count Dorku
FrodoGoofballCoTV from Colorado, USA Since: Jan, 2001
#14: May 2nd 2011 at 11:48:04 PM

I like the idea of multiple choice: which sentence has the best grammar. That's very easy to automate.

Then there's the question of an alternative to banning by handle or IP address.

  • Emails are easy to make, but they are harder than making a new handle.

Crazy ideas:

  • you could require users to download software that had a passcode embedded in it that spyware wouldn't identify as a cookie. To redo their identity, they'd have to uninstall it completely, including the file containing the passcode, and then start the application process over again with a different email. But that still wouldn't stop a determined troll, and a lot of users won't like that idea.
  • Only allow static IPs to edit.
  • Hire a master programmer / hacker / etc. to figure out how to ID individual computers. While many users have more than one, it's a lot easier to get a new handle / email / IP / etc. than a new computer.

edited 2nd May '11 11:49:22 PM by FrodoGoofballCoTV

FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#15: May 3rd 2011 at 12:15:02 AM

The grammar test ...

Dickheads aren't going to have patience for that sort of thing. Say it was three questions randomly selected out of a pool of a hundred or so. A dickhead would get tired of that pretty quick, him having to re qualify every time he got booted.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#16: May 3rd 2011 at 12:22:45 AM

None of those crazy ideas sound good. The last one might work.

Would it be possible for a "nuke edits by this troper" button for the mods? It doesn't have to be a permanent one, just one that stores their edits for a couple of days or the first few dozen.

Fight smart, not fair.
FrodoGoofballCoTV from Colorado, USA Since: Jan, 2001
#17: May 3rd 2011 at 12:40:44 AM

@Deboss: to be honest, I don't like my crazy ideas either, but I like to throw stuff out in hopes that it'll inspire others to think of better ones. ^^;

I do like the idea of "nuke edits by user".

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#18: May 3rd 2011 at 12:45:07 AM

I still think a white list for handles is a better idea.

Who watches the watchmen?
CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#19: May 3rd 2011 at 12:50:46 AM

The problem is, we need to put everyone on a white list until proven otherwise. We can't just automatically blacklist everyone then go around and whitelist them if we think they're trustworthy.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
Meophist from Toronto, Canada Since: May, 2010
#20: May 3rd 2011 at 12:53:55 AM

I think putting everybody on the "grey-list" by default would be a good idea, putting people on a white-list if they get on a black-listed ip but haven't shown to be any trouble.

...Although I suppose there's a bit of potential for abuse here.

Helpful Scripts and Stylesheets here.
Haven Planescape Hijack Since: Jan, 2001
Planescape Hijack
#21: May 3rd 2011 at 12:57:08 AM

Whitelisting everyone by default would make IP bans pointless, though.

Productivity is for people without internet connections. -Count Dorku
Meophist from Toronto, Canada Since: May, 2010
#22: May 3rd 2011 at 1:01:36 AM

Actually, an idea: maybe handles get white-listed after an unspecified, amount of time possibly involving random numbers, as long as they aren't black-listed. Or something.

Helpful Scripts and Stylesheets here.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#23: May 3rd 2011 at 1:05:57 AM

We can't just automatically blacklist everyone then go around and whitelist them if we think they're trustworthy.

That's not how the lists would work. The blacklist would affect IP ranges where trolls hang out, the white list would allow tropers that stumble onto those IP's to continue editing. Banning someone would entail removing their name from the whitelist and black listing their name.

Fight smart, not fair.
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#24: May 3rd 2011 at 1:14:32 AM

If I got right, the whitelist is pretty much useless for those who don't use shared IP. It is just a tool for helping those innocent tropers who stumble in a black listed IP, isn't it?

I like the idea. It could be abused, if a black listed troper claim it wasn't him on the IP so he can get white listed. However, if a former troll/vandal get whitelisted and don't cause problem latter (which would remove them from the list) the the objective of get rid of trolling/vandalism is reached anyway.

So, I guess the white list just need to be given to whose use shared IP. There shouldn't be much rules to allow someone in there, but shouldn't have much tolerance before removing either.

edited 3rd May '11 1:16:24 AM by Heatth

CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#25: May 3rd 2011 at 1:25:17 AM

That's not how the lists would work. The blacklist would affect IP ranges where trolls hang out, the white list would allow tropers that stumble onto those IP's to continue editing. Banning someone would entail removing their name from the whitelist and black listing their name.

From the impression I've recieved from the mods, though, it's not that simple. It's not just the IP and handle they ban, but they do other stuff too.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!

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