Vyctorian, you're making the value judgement that it's better to live a life of pain than to cease to exist completely. Good for you, and I agree, but that's subjective; not everybody is going to feel the same way and I see no reason why they should.
I've seen lives destroyed by depression. If you're coping with it, that's admirable. But not everybody is the same as you.
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The StaffWhile society typically seen those who commit suicide out of depression as 'weak', there are some illneses where there is an almost expectation you should do yourself in.
If you tell someone that your Living Will said that if you became brain dead vegetable, they should keep you alive regardless of quality of life or cost they will look at like you are some sort of werdo.
edited 2nd May '11 6:02:45 PM by joeyjojo
hashtagsarestupidI realise this is a sensitive topic, but let's try to stay polite, yeah?
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The StaffOP: In my opinion, depends on what responsibilities the person had, and to a point, especially if the person took care of a family.
Was Jack Mackerel. | i rite gudMu opinion maybe subjective but the Selfishness is universal especially if someone was relying on them ( A father, mother, care giver), then it goes from just plain selfish to practically Sociopathic.
also for the vegetable comments I've actually stated to be kept alive if that happens to me, I will fight my way out, others have done it before.
edited 2nd May '11 9:51:33 PM by Vyctorian
Rarely active, try DA/Tumblr Avatar by pippanaffie.deviantart.com
That's a pretty big assumption to make. Coming back from total brain death isn't exactly common. And it's not like an effort of will is a guaranteed cure for, y'know, anything ever.
Also, sociopathy is commonly caused by environmental factors (e.g. parental abuse) so... Not really sure what you're getting at by bringing that into the debate, unless you're referring to the abnormal lack of empathy? In which case, criticising these people for their lack of empathy is pretty hypocritical when you're demonstrating a complete lack of sympathy for them.
edited 3rd May '11 12:27:50 AM by DanEile
"You can only come to the morning through the shadows."^He said practically sociopathic, not actually sociopathic. You don't have to be an actual sociopath to have sociopathic tendencies, and if someone gets depressed enough to the point their own misery prevents them from recognising others troubles...
The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.edited 3rd May '11 1:43:28 PM by Tongpu
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That's what I suspected, but I wasn't sure. Which is why I asked him to clarify what he meant.
On the other hand, he's still criticising these people for their lack of empathy while demonstrating practically no sympathy himself so my point still stands. Regardless of how selfish or thoughtless these people may seem, they're still people, and moreover mentally ill people who deserve our respect and help.
edited 3rd May '11 2:14:47 PM by DanEile
"You can only come to the morning through the shadows."When person goes trough suicide, not plans, he is no longer thinking clearly. The fact that his desire to to die has already overidedden his survival instict, which happens to be very stong in humans, already tells that his subconciusness has given up trying to sort the mess.
Calling it selfish... I don't know, yes and no. It's both selfish to try to prevent someones died upon premise "it will cause grief to me" as well as do suicide on "it will end my grief". It's case by case, really. You can't put simple rules when it's selfish or not.
Why is it treated as a given that wanting to die constitutes irrationality or "not thinking clearly?" The survival instinct is just that: an instict, a predilection we have inherited from our ancestors, who, for the most part, were selected from among those organisms that were predisposed to avoid death for at least long enough to reproduce. The desire to live is, however, no more objectively valid than the desire to not live.
edited 3rd May '11 3:26:00 PM by MostlyBenign
I would ordinarily expect that a person who was thinking rationally would not want to die (except perhaps in truly, exceptionally horrible circumstances), but you're right, that doesn't have to be the case.
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The StaffMy question was largely rhetorical; I imagine the answer is, in almost all cases, that people can't help but to universalize their personal preferences.
Even the concept of a "disorder" is a manifestation of this tendency: it ultimately just means that a particular person deviates from the norm in a way, or to a degree, that is perceived to be alarming.
As someone who has considered suicide in the past (and attempted it once), I can attest to the truth of this.
edited 3rd May '11 4:16:46 PM by rbx5
I'll turn your neocortex into a flowerpot!What a vicious thing to say.
I don't agree with it. That quotation ignores both the actual intent of the person committing suicide and the actual consequences for everybody but the individual in question.
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The Staff^...No, I'm pretty sure it directly addresses the consequences for the person in question when it calls it the ultimate sin; and it addresses intent as well when it says how there are numerous justifications for suicide, but none are actually valid. In other words, suicide is never ok, regardless of your reasons for doing it; you do both the world and yourself a disservice.
I'll turn your neocortex into a flowerpot!@ rbx 5: I said the consequences for everyone but the individual, not the individual themselves.
And I said nothing about validity. That doesn't make his generalisations any more accurate as far as the actual intent is concerned.
Suicide certainly could be motivated that way, but that's not necessarily the intent, and the consequences obviously do not actually involve all women feeling insulted or all men dropping dead. If suicide causes nobody to die, be robbed or be raped, and if the one committing suicide did not intend to kill, rob or rape anybody, then suicide is not equivalent to those things, no matter what Chesterton might consider it to symbolise.
Also, the implication that rape is bad because it causes women to feel "insulted" is kind of stupid.
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The StaffThis is not directed at anyone, but this is my bit.
I do not think that suicide is selfish.
There are A LOT of people with life-long problems, and this notion that it is a "temporary" problem usually only applies to something like a teenage girl losing her boyfriend, not someone who was sexually abused and has to live with the resulting issues for their whole life.
This is real life, not TV. No magical speech will cure it, there really isn't much of a thing called 'closure'. There is no 100% healing for those really deep emotional scars. Look at it this way; if you break a bone, it will show for the rest of your life, or if you get a deep enough cut, the scar will stay for YEARS if not your whole life.
Put in abuse and mental illness, and it is selfish to call someone selfish because you can't understand what it is like to suffer from mental illness, and sexual abuse as well as a childhood full of emotional abuse and scape-goating.
Call someone selfish for wanting excruciating pain to end, I DARE YOU. Call someone selfish for wanting all their years of pain to end, I DARE YOU. Call a permanent answer to a life-long problem, that WILL impact their well-being for their whole life selfish. I DARE YOU.
I agree, however, that it can be if they have children to take care of, but then again... would it be better for them to raise these kids, or give them to someone who can take good care of them? I am not advocating suicide, but if a parent is suicidal, it might be best if the child is taken away.
as of the 2nd of Nov. has 6 weeks for a broken collar bone to heal and types 1 handed and slowlyRe: Wanting to die meaning not thinking clearly.
One factor is that, based on my own experiences and what I've heard from other suicidal people, sometimes the person doesn't actually want to die, exactly, in that they'd be perfectly happy to keep living if they could get their life to actually be happy and fulfilling. It's the fact that they nothing they can see or do seems to achieve that goal that's what wears them down and makes them want to give up. It's not necessarily that dying is appealing, just that it seems better than a miserable life that shows signs of staying that way indefinitely.
...Also, jasonwill 2's post = QFT.
Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)

edited 2nd May '11 3:02:12 PM by DanEile
"You can only come to the morning through the shadows."