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Suicide=Selfish?

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joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#76: May 1st 2011 at 6:57:10 PM

I'm not sure if this would count as selfish, but a friend of mine in insurance told me once about a middle age man who canceled his life insurance before he committed suicide to make sure his wife would be financially destitute after his death.

Seriously, what the fuck? surprised

edited 1st May '11 6:59:04 PM by joeyjojo

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Loid from Eastern Standard Time Since: Jun, 2011
#78: May 1st 2011 at 7:02:23 PM

[up][up][up]

Nope. Say I desert in the middle of a war. It takes balls to leave and risk death and leave the war. However, it's still cowardly.

"Dr. Strangeloid, or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Cleanlink" - thespacephantom
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#79: May 1st 2011 at 7:11:44 PM

Ever read On The Rainy River?

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#80: May 1st 2011 at 7:12:11 PM

"Also, while I realise this has no bearing on the truth value of the claims, I can't help but feel that blanket insulting every single suicidal person is kind of insensitive to those who lost loved ones that way." - Bobby G

For what it's worth, the same "insensitivity" label could be applied to such suicidal people themselves.

Of course, a blanket label to this is only fair when you have something that applies to it "by definition..."

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#81: May 1st 2011 at 7:12:32 PM

@ Loid: I don't think that's really a comparable situation, but I'll agree that it's not really courageous to commit suicide, or at least, it doesn't strike me as a virtuous action.

Though I suppose there are circumstances in which it could be, e.g. Taking the Bullet. If that counts.

^ If somebody's actually depressed or distressed to the point of being suicidal, I don't really blame them for being insensitive. It's very easy and comparatively painless to condemn somebody else while you're in a calm, healthy state of mind yourself.

edited 1st May '11 7:16:12 PM by BobbyG

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joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#82: May 1st 2011 at 7:14:39 PM

Not selfish as much as a dick move

More like a dick mass migration.

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Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#83: May 1st 2011 at 7:15:14 PM

I'm not sure something like that should count as...oh drat I've been sucked in.

But for the purposes of this discussion, I was thinking of suicide as in killing yourself because you are in pain.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#84: May 1st 2011 at 7:16:12 PM

[up][up][up] Well, to be fair, dying is a side-effect (and not always an inherent one, at that) of Taking the Bullet, whereas in suicide it is the goal in and of itself.

edited 1st May '11 7:16:25 PM by neoYTPism

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
SPACETRAVEL from ☉ Since: Oct, 2010
#86: May 1st 2011 at 10:54:14 PM

If you are going to try and prevent them from suicide because of the pain it will cause others, convincing that you do love and care about them and that it would hurt to see them die seems a more stable foundation to build on then attacking them for selfishness, justified or not.
When ("When" as in I don't mean to make a blanket statement about all) this can't be done is what I have a problem with—when the suicidal person is convinced that you will not be hurt if they die on your behalf, in spite of you yourself claiming otherwise. The person has become convinced that they know you better than you know yourself. They are putting thoughts in your head and feelings in your heart in the way that you can say someone is putting words in your mouth. (Not repeating myself for emphasis or emotion here, but throwing out multiple possible descriptions so that it's more likely I'll throw out the adequate one, which is so hard to find that it might not exist.)

Going through that repeatedly in trying to talk someone down from suicide does shit to a person. There's got to be a time when one must stop doing the quoted things and do something else when it's not working.

edited 1st May '11 11:04:07 PM by SPACETRAVEL

whoever wrote this shit needs to step on a rake in a comedic fashion
Jeysie Diva of Virtual Death from Western Massachusetts Since: Jun, 2010
Diva of Virtual Death
#87: May 1st 2011 at 11:13:42 PM

To those of you saying "Well, other people endure worse without wanting to die!", have you ever considered that maybe it's not a matter of the suicidal person being weak, but a matter of those other people being unusually strong?

@SPACE TRAVEL!

Well, speaking from my own head, the reason why someone will think they know better than you do is either because you're giving mixed signals that make the person feel like you don't actually mean what you say, or the person accepts you feel that way but can't understand why in their own mentalscape.

I mean, for instance, as an example of the first thing, whenever someone asks my mom always claims she's glad I've moved back in with her and she hopes I stay. And yet every time I do something for her she just complains about how I did it wrong, or it was the wrong thing, and when I finally give up trying to help her out as a result, then she complains about that. It's like, no matter what you claim, you sure as heck don't act like you're happy to have me around, seeing as how nothing I do seems to make you happy.

And as an example of the second thing, I know my girlfriend loves me, but I can't figure out why, when she could easily get someone who is more accessible geography-wise, is actually attractive, isn't utterly lacking in any kind of real talents and social skills, can actually find and keep a decent-paying job, etc.

So if you want to be able to talk down a suicidal person, you need to be able to get into their head and figure out what is making them feel the way they do and either fix any problems happening or find a way to address it from their POV. Simply claiming you'll miss them or they're weak if they go through with it or other guilt/shame trips might help a little or delay, but they're generally not going to make the person actually stop being suicidal.

edited 1st May '11 11:15:32 PM by Jeysie

Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
DanEile Inexplicable Student from Ireland Since: May, 2010
Inexplicable Student
#88: May 2nd 2011 at 1:00:54 AM

@Neo, about a page ago: I don't know how the majority in America sees the issue, but I would hope that people in Ireland wouldn't express the opinion that bankers should commit suicide over the recession. It's a big business and the corruption ran to the top; moreover, the blame does not rest on the shoulders of the banking industry alone, but every greedy person who took out a loan for a second house when they didn't need one, or bought up apartments in expensive resorts. People just wanted a scapegoat they could blame for their problems.

Besides, if people genuinely feel that suicide is justified in the case of these bankers, maybe they just need a bit of education on the situation. Yes, some of them were corrupt. But the problem goes much deeper than that and it's simply mad to place all the blame on the shoulders of the few. I certainly don't feel that it should be intimated to any man in the industry that he should commit suicide for redemption.

"You can only come to the morning through the shadows."
Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
◥▶◀◤
#89: May 2nd 2011 at 1:31:42 AM

@ Bobby G as a suffer of Cynical depression for almost half my life, I can say yes it is a little pain. I've learned to deal with it so can others, I still feel pain I feel it daily, it is intense and it does not go away, but neither does the wind or sun. I draw power from my sorrow and so can others if they only bother to try. When I said life is pain,it was more than a Princess Bride referance to me it is a daily reminder that life is tough, and filled with angst, I don't believe in not complaining about what hurts you (I Wangst like a mo-fo) but I also do not believe in taking the easy way out it is ultimately a critical weakness in humanity. It should be overcome not given into.

edited 2nd May '11 1:38:02 AM by Vyctorian

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MostlyBenign Why so serious? Since: Mar, 2010
Why so serious?
#90: May 2nd 2011 at 7:45:21 AM

Your romantic conception of yourself as a byronic hero with your badass longcoat flapping in the wind may be sufficient to keep you going, but it's not something that everybody gets a kick out of. "Life is a grim challenge to be overcome or endured" is no less of a subjective view of the world than "life is sunshine and flowers to be enjoyed".

Calling suicide "cowardly" is just ridiculous; it takes far more courage than anyone posting here has likely ever demonstrated, whereas continuing to get up in the morning takes none.

Calling suicide "selfish" is right on the mark, of course, but it's also utterly absurd as a criticism. Whenever someone makes the argument to my face, I like to counter it by asking for a blowjob: after all, if they can't take 15 minutes of their time to do that much for my convenience, they really can't expect anyone to endure a lifetime of pain for theirs.

DanEile Inexplicable Student from Ireland Since: May, 2010
Inexplicable Student
#91: May 2nd 2011 at 8:03:37 AM

[up] On the selfish point, going without a blowjob for a few minutes is hardly analogous to going without a close friend or family member for the rest of your life. The reality of what you're discussing is far different: It's not about someone doing something for someone else's convenience, it's several orders of magnitude higher than that. This is potentially shattered lives we're discussing here.

On the other hand, nor is it about criticising these people out of hand. The point is that they be fully aware of the consequences of what they're doing.

edited 2nd May '11 8:06:31 AM by DanEile

"You can only come to the morning through the shadows."
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#92: May 2nd 2011 at 8:16:10 AM

In a way it's selfish, but:

We don't live for the sake of others. Sure, we should all be nice to each other, because of game theory, because we are sociable animals and because of plain ethics, but still everybody lives for his or her own sake. Sure, I can help my friends or family with this or that, but living for their sake? No.

So all in all, I don't think it's "illegitimately" selfish at all.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
DanEile Inexplicable Student from Ireland Since: May, 2010
Inexplicable Student
#93: May 2nd 2011 at 8:19:53 AM

Again, not saying that they have to live for the sake of their family or friends, but that they need to be aware of what they'll be costing them.

"You can only come to the morning through the shadows."
MostlyBenign Why so serious? Since: Mar, 2010
Why so serious?
#94: May 2nd 2011 at 9:51:01 AM

Of course they're not analoguous in terms of severity. They are, however, analoguous in terms of selfishness.

DanEile Inexplicable Student from Ireland Since: May, 2010
Inexplicable Student
#95: May 2nd 2011 at 9:55:01 AM

I don't quite understand. Are you saying that the same level of selfishness is involved in refusing to give someone a blowjob as in taking one's own life? Because I don't know about you, but I don't just hand blowjobs out.

edited 2nd May '11 9:55:35 AM by DanEile

"You can only come to the morning through the shadows."
MostlyBenign Why so serious? Since: Mar, 2010
Why so serious?
#96: May 2nd 2011 at 10:26:01 AM

It's the same principle, though obviously, the stakes are different. In the case of the blowjob, however, it will be widely agreed that nobody has to perform any sexual act with me regardless of how long I've been celibate or how miserable it might make me. People have the right to be selfish about their bodies because it's their body, etc. etc.

Choosing to live or die is just about the most basic act of self-determination that we can make. It should be treated as an inalienable right every bit as much as (the comparatively trivial) acts of sexual self-determination.

DanEile Inexplicable Student from Ireland Since: May, 2010
Inexplicable Student
#97: May 2nd 2011 at 10:42:42 AM

[up] Now I understand. I will say that I agree with you, within certain circumstances. But people should always tell their family or friends what they're going through and seek help first. People deserve that much.

You might also note that most human rights are subject to certain limitations, and the most common limitation found is the "exigencies of the common good". That is, where the benefit to the majority of denying a person that right vastly outweighs the benefit that the individual might derive from it. So, you know. It all depends on the individual circumstances of each situation. Can the wishes of an individual be more important than the right to health and happiness of potentially many others? Potentially, if that individual is truly depressed and has some justification for his suicide. But it could easily also go the other way.

Swings and roundabouts. It's an interesting area to consider, certainly.

edited 2nd May '11 10:50:18 AM by DanEile

"You can only come to the morning through the shadows."
MostlyBenign Why so serious? Since: Mar, 2010
Why so serious?
#98: May 2nd 2011 at 10:54:33 AM

I suppose it's a question of the implicit assumptions we bring with us. When I imagine someone suicidal, I tend to imagine someone who doesn't have many human contacts, apart perhaps from their family (parents and siblings) and some relatively distant acquaintances - obviously, suicide becomes far more questionable if you do have, for instance, children who depend on you.

DanEile Inexplicable Student from Ireland Since: May, 2010
Inexplicable Student
#99: May 2nd 2011 at 10:59:55 AM

[up] Agreed. As I said, the circumstances of the individual case will have a great bearing on which way my opinion would swing.

"You can only come to the morning through the shadows."
Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
◥▶◀◤
#100: May 2nd 2011 at 2:54:50 PM

Make excuses for them all you like it's a selfish act and they are cowards, but if they want to take their lives like cowards they will not be missed, they didn't deserve the life they had anyways with they were so willing to throw it into the abyss of the nothingness that comes with death. Too be losing my existence is far worse than living life alone and in pain. The absurdity is in the taking of ones own life, instead of overcoming, not the other way around.

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