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Suicide=Selfish?

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KShade Since: Apr, 2011
#1: Apr 30th 2011 at 9:06:40 PM

As someone who has considered suicide before, I have heard numerous people say that it is selfish, but I believe after a certain point the sufferer suffers so much that it would be selfish for you to expect them to live in absolute misery. There's only so much one person can take before they just have to look out themselves.

Discuss.

edited 30th Apr '11 9:07:26 PM by KShade

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#2: Apr 30th 2011 at 9:07:39 PM

To a point it's very selfish. I haven't had a Dad since I was 13, and my mother had to raise a pissed off teenager as a single parent for much of my adolescence.

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#3: Apr 30th 2011 at 9:10:18 PM

Even if it was, why would it matter? It's not like the argument is going to convince anyone who's actually thinking about it.

Buscemi I Am The Walrus from a log cabin Since: Jul, 2010
I Am The Walrus
#4: Apr 30th 2011 at 9:53:48 PM

I don't consider it selfish. I consider it a final exit.

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Usht Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard from an arbitrary view point. Since: Feb, 2011
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
#5: Apr 30th 2011 at 9:58:01 PM

Sounds like a quick, permanent, and overly glorified solution to a problem with several other better solutions that the person isn't seeing.

So, not so much selfish as just narrow minded.

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thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#6: Apr 30th 2011 at 9:58:34 PM

[up][up] Depending on your beliefs it's either a final exit or going to lead unending pain, no fun either way really.

[up][up][up] You'd be surprised.

[up][up][up][up] sorry to hear that barkey.

[up][up][up][up][up] Suicide greatly impacts everyone who loved you, they will most likely never really get over it without a significant amount of therapy.

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Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#7: Apr 30th 2011 at 9:59:51 PM

I consider it weakness. No amount of despair is worth ending your life, in my personal opinion.

Tongpu Since: Jan, 2001
#8: Apr 30th 2011 at 10:00:58 PM

Sure, it's selfish. So what? The way I see it, "it's selfish" is not a real reason not to do it. There are times when you fucking well should be selfish, and this is one of them *

. We can't all be on the same team all the time. Sometimes, what you want and what others want are mutually exclusive. "it's selfish" is only for when there's sufficient overlap.

ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#9: Apr 30th 2011 at 10:01:36 PM

Define selfish.

I look at it this way. Selfish is to consider your interest over that of everybody else. By committing suicide, you are considering your interest - taking a final exit so that you don't have to deal with perceived agony any more regardless of whether it is justifiable or not - above those of all others who would like you alive.

Now, the OP points out an interesting case. Suppose in a hypothetical scenario there are only two people in one closed community. One wants to kill himself, the other wants him to stay alive. In this case, the one who wants the other to stay alive is as guilty of selfishness as the one who wants to commit suicide, because he considers his interest alone above that of all the other person - namely, the suicidal one.

However, in a community with an arbitrarily large population, the number of people who would not want to have a friend/acquaintance commit suicide would very probably be far larger than one. Therefore, by my definition, they are not selfish, for they as individuals are not considering their own personal interest above those of everybody else, since their interest is shared by a large collective.

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Jeysie Diva of Virtual Death from Western Massachusetts Since: Jun, 2010
Diva of Virtual Death
#10: Apr 30th 2011 at 10:04:24 PM

I agree with you 100%, K Shade.

I mean, I will say that suicide is technically selfish to some degree, in that wanting to stop your personal pain is obviously a self-centered concern.

But I really hate that people act like that's a horrible thing, like how dare someone not want to live a life of extreme psychological and/or physical pain they can't see a way out of, because clearly they need to put up with it and suffer just to make other people happy?

I also hate the notion that it's always weakness or "a permanent solution to a temporary problem". While some people do commit suicide from a hasty reaction to a one-time issue, more often that not it's actually instead the end result of an ongoing experience of psychological issues and/or problems.

Plus I've never understood how it's weakness to be able to kill yourself. (I mean, quite frankly, the only reason I'm still alive is because I'm afraid of death and thus too cowardly to kill myself.)

edited 30th Apr '11 10:04:46 PM by Jeysie

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Usht Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard from an arbitrary view point. Since: Feb, 2011
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
#11: Apr 30th 2011 at 10:08:51 PM

It's weakness because you gave up when life got hard. People go through shit, at different times in their life, but everyone goes through shit, and several tons of it too. No one's life is bright and shiny all of the time and stopping right there just means you're unable to cope.

Granted, you can't always expect some groups, especially those who are young, to have that strength, but it's a definite sign of emotional weakness and instability.

edited 30th Apr '11 10:09:01 PM by Usht

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Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#12: Apr 30th 2011 at 10:11:16 PM

The vast majority of suicide attempts, successful or otherwise, are not due to "life being hard." They are due to depression. Suicidal ideation is generally a chemical problem, not a personal failing. Sheesh.

ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#13: Apr 30th 2011 at 10:11:36 PM

[up][up][up]I disagree with you to the extent that suicide is only a solution when there is absolutely, literally no solution for you when you are alive. There is also that whole deal about psychological problems that I, frankly speaking, do not approve. Psychological trauma can be (difficult, I do realize that) healed given the time. Abuse of any sort can be intervened and solved by the authorities.

And while I am at it, I am going to throw this out: People who end their life because of romantic problems and then (if they are luckily saved) cry "but I am undergoing emotional/psychological trauma!" shame everyone who actually suffer from genuine trauma.

edited 30th Apr '11 10:12:03 PM by ArgeusthePaladin

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Tongpu Since: Jan, 2001
#14: Apr 30th 2011 at 10:18:56 PM

Plus I've never understood how it's weakness to be able to kill yourself.
Words have a variety of subtly different meanings. Suicide fits some meanings of weakness, and some meanings of strength. Different people give more importance to different definitions.

Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#15: Apr 30th 2011 at 10:22:27 PM

[up][up][up]This. The thing people are forgetting is that most people who are suicidal are not coming from a fully rational state of mind.

And saying it's selfish to commit suicide because of how it will hurt others isn't a very good argument when people in that state of mind are often convinced they are a burden and that others will be better off without them.

edited 30th Apr '11 10:22:45 PM by Drakyndra

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Jeysie Diva of Virtual Death from Western Massachusetts Since: Jun, 2010
Diva of Virtual Death
#16: Apr 30th 2011 at 10:28:30 PM

@Argeus the Paladin It's more the fact that the person believes there's no option but suicide for them.

This may or may not actually be the case, obviously. But when it's not the case, I don't get why the people who claim they'd be hurt if the person died don't take steps to help the person, as opposed to just wringing their hands over the coffin or hospital bed and lamenting "Why didn't the person realize we care/they could have helped themselves?"

Well, you know, maybe you should have asked? Or if you actually did know what was going on, helped them do something about it?

I mean, if someone believes suicide is the only way out, there's a reason for it. Maybe they can't see a feasible/realistic way out and nobody's shown them one. Maybe their loved ones are, without realizing, consistently acting in a way that hurts the person or gives the impression they don't care. Maybe the person just has serious untreated mental issues that screw with their perception and make them incapable of realizing things actually aren't that bad. Etc.

Blaming the suicidal person entirely like there's absolutely no other factors in their decision except being too weak to deal with minor problems or whatever, is blind, to put it mildly.

And saying it's selfish to commit suicide because of how it will hurt others isn't a very good argument when people in that state of mind are often convinced they are a burden and that others will be better off without them.
Yep, that's sometimes a factor as well. The suicidal person is like, "You'll get over it and realize you're actually much happier without having to deal with me."

edited 30th Apr '11 10:32:13 PM by Jeysie

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ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#17: Apr 30th 2011 at 10:34:43 PM

[up] Let me draw up another hypothetical model for that scenario you've just suggested.

Now, on a hypothetical situation where a person in a community decides to take his own life. However, he is an introverted type who pretty much never expresses what he feels to those around him whether he is happy or sad or depressed (we are assuming the possible causes of this out of the current scenario for simplicity's sake). And BAM! He took his life. Just like that. Nobody got a chance to ask, because people don't normally go around asking "Hey, are you suicidal recently?" unless there are signs. So who is to be blamed?

The bottom line here is that sometimes people who are suicidal does not help their case by being silent. That, and the pressure of busy life means at times even your best friends would overlook your plight because he/she has his/her own life to worry about.

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Tongpu Since: Jan, 2001
#18: Apr 30th 2011 at 10:35:05 PM

@Drakyndra: I get the impression a lot of the time that it's not being used as an attempt at logical argument, but rather as an attempt to take advantage of the depressive's irrationality by using their heightened sense of guilt to steer them in a different direction, kind of like how one might get someone with antisocial personality disorder to follow the rules by showing them that they stand to get away with more by being Lawful Evil than Chaotic Evil.

thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#19: Apr 30th 2011 at 10:41:56 PM

You can't use reasoned, logical arguments with someone who is about to commit suicide, you have to prey on their weaknesses. Some people it's guilt, others it's telling them how much they mean to you, others still just need to be kept talking till they realize what a bad idea it is. Most people just need time to think about things.

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Metalitia Transsexual needs <3 from New York City Since: Jul, 2009
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#20: Apr 30th 2011 at 10:48:51 PM

As someone who's attempted suicide THREE times before, I agree with the following:

  • YES, it's selfish to want to kill yourself/actually do it.
    • But at that point, why should anyone else's anger over your selfishness matter?

  • I also agree with the assessment that the people accusing you of being selfish MAY be trying to appeal to your guilt, since my mom made me feel REALLY badly when she yelled at me when she caught me during each attempt.

Thing is, I feel people don't have the right to call one's suicidal feelings/attempts/success selfish if they're not actually going to HELP you. My mom got all pissed off, but she didn't do anything to help, and in fact was the majority of the reason I had (and still have) suicidal feelings.

I only haven't tried again after my third one because I'm exhausted with trying, and the fact that I failed before and my life's just gonna actually get worse if I don't succeed. (and if I DID succeed, why would I care where my life goes?)

I lost my friends from my second attempt, and they even put me through over 2 hours of (completely true and accurate) character assassination before abandoning me because they were pissed off that I tried to kill myself. I was just pissed off that they'd abandoned me in that way after barely giving a crap about me for the past few years before that.

I happen to know that my mom WOULD be much happier without me (even though she'd be devastated for a few years) because she doesn't even fake being nice to me anymore. Plus she didn't give me anything at all for Christmas OR my birthday (she even yelled at me for trivial BS that day, too), so that's how I know she doesn't give a crap anymore; she keeps threatening to kick me out and leave me to fend for myself on the street.

I fail to see how wanting to kill myself is more selfish than a parent like that in general.

I think I have more, but I can't think of it right now.

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Jeysie Diva of Virtual Death from Western Massachusetts Since: Jun, 2010
Diva of Virtual Death
#21: Apr 30th 2011 at 10:50:36 PM

Nobody got a chance to ask, because people don't normally go around asking "Hey, are you suicidal recently?" unless there are signs. So who is to be blamed?
In that sort of case, nobody.

Maybe I should qualify that I'm just trying to argue against the survivors or sympathizers of said blaming the suicidal person for being weak, inconsiderate, foolhardy, etc. I'm not necessarily trying to say that has to mean it's automatically other people's fault.

Sometimes you really did you all you could or you didn't know there was an issue. I'm just saying, you still shouldn't stoop to vilifying the suicidal person in those cases.

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melloncollie Since: Feb, 2012
#22: Apr 30th 2011 at 10:56:24 PM

Sure it might be, but it's still a bad anti-suicide argument. You'd have to prove to the person in question that people do care about them still and not secretly hate them and/or benefit without their presence, or whatever.

If you are a dependent with no job, and don't feel that you will be able to obtain one, wouldn't it seem more selfish to keep living and draining society's resources?

kashchei Since: May, 2010
#23: Apr 30th 2011 at 10:59:00 PM

The vast majority of suicide attempts, successful or otherwise, are not due to "life being hard." They are due to depression.

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ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#24: Apr 30th 2011 at 10:59:08 PM

[up][up] I do not believe it is completely impossible for anyone to find a job. If you feel you are a drain to society, then by all means educate yourself in the respective field and find a job out there. Unless you are just lazy, but as far as I know lazy people who lives on benefits aren't altruistic or responsible enough to consider that they are being a drain.

To be frank, that seems like the lamest reason for suicide of them all.

[up][up][up] On the other hand, I've seen enough people vilifying the relatives of those having committed suicide as to why they haven't stopped them from taking their own lives. It depends, I guess.

edited 30th Apr '11 11:00:23 PM by ArgeusthePaladin

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melloncollie Since: Feb, 2012
#25: Apr 30th 2011 at 11:12:30 PM

I do not believe it is completely impossible for anyone to find a job. If you feel you are a drain to society, then by all means educate yourself in the respective field and find a job out there. Unless you are just lazy, but as far as I know lazy people who lives on benefits aren't altruistic or responsible enough to consider that they are being a drain.

Depressives are hardly the most reasonable people, first of all. It's not hard for one to be convinced that they will be worthless forever and ever and ever.

I myself don't have much experience in the job market, but I have cousins who have Ph D's (and in science too, not lame stuff like literature :P) and still can't find work. Stories like that can't be encouraging.

That "educate yourself in the respective field", btw? School takes time and money. Unless you meant something like go be a fast food employee or janitor, those don't require schooling.

edited 30th Apr '11 11:14:54 PM by melloncollie


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