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It's worth noting that some of the protests against this came from rape victims who had flashbacks because of it. I would never have thought of that joke as being a potential trigger.
edited 28th Apr '11 9:21:48 PM by feotakahari
And you know what, because of that strip, Rape as Comedy is listed on the Penny Arcade page without being graphic. Proof that the wiki is self warning without the addition of trigger warnings. The best warnings the wiki can have are to link all tropes in a work that could be problematic.
edited 28th Apr '11 9:28:10 PM by shimaspawn
Not really proof, no.
Not unless you wanna go through all the rape tropes and check their entries individually.
One case of it does not mean all are like that.
Of course, anyone who knows that rape is present and has the time to add a trigger warning could also figure out at least one entry on Rape Tropes that is present, thereby making the trigger warning redundant.
Anybody who has the presence of mind to add the warning could just as easily rewrite the entry, too.
Wait. No. Stop.
We are talking about a work, not publishing it. Why do we need to put up any kind of disclaimer when talking about something that is talking about something?
There are a lot of people out there in the world that have been victimized by stuff but that doesn't mean there is an obligation to throw metaphorical capes down in the mud in front of them.
If we were dedicated to assisting the victimized I could understand the impulse to make the world safe. But, this place is dedicated to exploring the tropes of storytelling and sometimes the stories aren't safe and they aren't pretty.
Every single one of us is the victim of some kind of violence/crime/whatever the hell. That doesn't mean the world is obligated to protect us from references to that experience. Especially when we are talking about fiction. That is one of the purposes of storytelling, isn't it? To help us understand the things that happen.
FWIW I think trigger warnings are a massively bad idea. Virtually every site that has one ends up with a flame war over what it should go on. It may start with just one or two "sensitively" placed warnings, but it ends with people deciding anything that causes Squick also causes triggers. I agree that anyone who has been hurt badly enough to get triggered by tropes needs help we cannot (and are not qualified to) give. Trigger warnings are not the solution to that, sorry.
edited 29th Apr '11 6:49:56 AM by CrypticMirror
I'm in general agreement with Shimaspawn on this one.
I mostly agree with CM in this one. Our mission is not to babysit people, nor it can be due the nature of our medium. If people are so hurt they can't read the word "grape" without thinking back to "horrible times", they are giving trouble not just to us.
Blackcat summed up my feelings pretty well, actually.
I think both sides are exaggerating a little. I don't believe we need Warnings on Work Pages and Tropes, but Warnings on original pages like WMG, Fan Fic Rec and Troper Tales wouldn't do any harm and they wouldn't be "babysitting". However, I think the warnings should only be given in special conditions, like very big descriptions or images, that actually have triggered people.
@Shima; That's essentially what I said. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together should be able to realize that a trope with Rape in the name is very much about rape.
Except Mind Rape.
But that's another story.
Also, if anyone brings up a discussion on whether to rename Mind Rape I will eat my desk.
For that purpose, I think spoiler tags (possibly accompanied by a "disturbing content" warning higher up the page, like we have on The Human Centipede) would be sufficient. Do we have an option to hide/show individual images, though?
edited 29th Apr '11 3:17:10 PM by EmilyD
fanfic recs already have Tags for stuff like that.
edited 29th Apr '11 3:32:50 PM by CrypticMirror
I am going to side with blackcats view in general.
There shouldn't be anything in images that isn't SFW though. Our images are generally pretty mild on purpose.
The moderators have discussed the issue and have decided on the following policy. Comments and constructive criticism will be appreciated, but it is unlikely that the broad strokes will be changed. Assuming that there are no major issues, I will add it to the Trigger page this weekend and it will become official.
It is not our job to account for people who have difficult with the mere mention of rape, abuse, violence, etc., so no policy will be designed with such people in mind. In the case of everyone else, as it is not our job to be a replacement for common sense, and as a partially implemented system will be worse than no system at all, there will be no official trigger warnings. What will at will not be allowed depends on the type of page in question.
As I mentioned above, comments and constructive criticism may result in tweaks, but we will almost certainly go forward with this policy soon.
edited 3rd May '11 3:36:44 PM by Ironeye
Do they, though? Last I checked the only thing we warned for on fanfic pages was "homosexual or non-canon material".
There was a long discussion about that in which it was decided that more warnings were required (including heterosexual material, as well). If the guidelines page for Fan Fic Recs has not been updates since then, it should be.
With the fanfic thing, the problem is the current template is not being followed properly (or at all). It needs to be bumped up to the top of the fanfic recs page and a concerted effort needed to convert the existing pages to that format (I think the problem is converting the existing comments to reviews, if we could have permission just to nuke the current comments rather than copying them over then we could convert them all in a week tops, it's the fiddly bit of transferring the comments that is time consuming)
But apart from doing more to get fanfic recs to follow the correct format, I think this is exactly the right course. Full marks one and all.
Looking at a bunch of random fanfic rec pages, it looks like most have no warning at all, but more have the old warning than the new one. There doesn't appear to be any general guidelines page at all.
The template with the guidelines is at the very bottom of the Fan Fic Recommendations main index page (also it says "preferred format" which makes it seem like it is optional, should be "required format", permission to change that too please mods?). That's what I mean when I say it should be at the top of that page. The Tags section is explained there. It's up to the original recommender to decide if a fic needs tags though. Although I should note, the only real warning needed is already at the top of the page, albeit in Gratuitous Latin, "Caveat Lector: Let Reader Beware".
If we convert from comments to reviews (which isn't being pushed and ought to be) then anything in the comments that reflects a need for a tag ought to be included. The trouble is the conversion from rambling ranty comments isn't being done because of the requirement to convert them into reviews, which is fiddly and time consuming. If we could be allowed to nuke the comments (let the commenters put their own review in) and just do a straight-up adding of review-code and tags it could be cleaned up pretty quick.
edited 3rd May '11 4:05:54 PM by CrypticMirror
I agree; the entry format info needs to be moved above the page list on Fan Fic Recommendations and changed to "required format".
edited 3rd May '11 6:45:31 PM by Willbyr
Yes, that needs to be done. (This is official moderator permission.)
As for the matter of comment transfer/deletion, I'll speak with the rest of the moderators. We may end up making a new thread in Special Efforts about the fan fic recs issue.
In the mean time, let's re-rail this thread.
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How well does it match the trope?