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Problems with authority among comic book fans.

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gibberingtroper Since: May, 2009
#1: Apr 27th 2011 at 2:21:16 PM

I've noticed a recurring trend among comic book fans and I suppose its a byproduct of a couple of common features of the fanbase. Comic book readers seem to react negatively to even reasonable demonstrations of authority.

I think this can be attributed to one or more of the following causes. 1) Most important: Superhero comic book fiction is wish fulfillment escapism. I'll admit I read Superman comics because I liked to dream about being Superman. I think this holds up for most fans. 2) Superhero fans are young. They aren't children these days but the comic book demographic is most concentrated in the 15 to 30 range. During this time fans are idealistic, rebellious against various authorities as they seek to establish their own identity. 3) The medium itself has fed on these tendencies. The bad guy often wants to take over the world, or the country or whatever. There is corruption in government, corruption in business (moreso than real life and often motivated by the machinations of obviously evil villains.)

Now, I'm a libertarian. I believe in small and limited government, but it kills me to see the hatred with which fans tend to lash out at some of these stories.

The two big examples I can think of are Green Lantern and Civil War.

Recently, the Guardians decided to create the Alpha Lanterns. These are more powerful Lanterns used as an internal affairs division to reign in any rogue lanterns. On a couple of different occasions, an alpha was hijacked by some other entity and used for evil. Some group of fanboys on these forums now seem to paint the Guardian's as retarded assholes because of this.

The Guardians did in fact have reason for their actions in that, in the past couple of decades, two lanterns had gone rogue. The first, Sinestro, has been a persistent threat to the Lanterns since then and exposed a flaw in the Lantern's operating procedures by operating as a tyrant while still a Lantern. The second, Hal Jordan, was corrupted and ultimately destroyed the Lantern Corps. They were lucky to get their Corps back after that one. In light of this. Its not colossally stupid for them to try to have an internal affairs division.

Then we have Civil War. Captain America decides to rebel when the government decides its time to start actually holding people accountable when they routinely wield the power to cause massive damage and casualties. The fanboys cried about how evil this all was and certainly there are some elements in Tony's approach that could be second guessed but the virulent hatred and frothing of the fanboys was far beyond what was warranted.

But these are young men who like to imagine themselves with the power to shrug off authority and do what they want. Any attempt to reign that in is going to be seen as evil. I think the articles bear watching.

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#2: Apr 27th 2011 at 3:03:35 PM

Civil War, the guy responsible was fogotten. To know what happened to Nitro you'd have to find tie in stories. If you just read the main line, Nitro killed a bunch of civilians and superheroes. Civilians blame superheroes, rather than the murderer, and attack the people who defend them. The government then hunts superheroes, but nobody seems to care that Nitro is still on the loose and can blow up more people, and if you read enough tie in stories, Nitro does blow up again and kill people. Specifically in Atlantis, that place Ironman wanted to attack to lure out people who didn't support registration. They resorting to immoral actions to restrain people for a law that hasn't even been passed yet. Those guys objecting have legal right. Oh and nobody cares about the murderer expect Wolverine? It was crap. The only good thing was that World War Hulk was next...except Hulk didn't kill anybody even though they were all too dumb to live.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#3: Apr 27th 2011 at 3:48:51 PM

The civil war wasn't as simplistic and reasonable as the OP claims.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#4: Apr 27th 2011 at 8:42:27 PM

Also, about the Alpha Lanterns: the problem that most of the starring G Ls (and, subsequently, the fans) have with the Alpha Lanterns is how it strips the personality and emotions of the Lanterns who they once were. The Alpha Lanterns become bio-synthetic constructs that are more machine than man. And the basic problem with relying upon machines to enforce order is that those machines only do what they are programmed to do and serve the person in charge. The fact that anyone can override the Alpha's programming and turn them into threats is a very real concern. Yes, G Ls can be corrupted, brainwashed or make a Heel–Face Turn, but the entire reason they were created in the first place is because of their extraordinary will power. The Alpha Lanterns, being machines, completely subvert that ideal; their "will" belongs to the person who winds their crank.

Also, as I've said before, superhero comics in themselves do not really allow for the sovereignty of government. As was shown in the Justice League cartoon and in Dark Reign, the problem with trying to make the government have total control over superhumans is that this is impossible because the existence of superheroes shows just how little control the government actually has. If you need superheroes to defeat Korvac, Galactus and Ultron for you, then you have no real power. If you had forces strong enough to defeat the guys who beat down Magneto, then why didn't you just beat down Magneto to begin with?

There's also this problem: in order for the government to control supers, they would need a greater amount of force to do so. If Superman can fart megatons, then you need a team of people who can do the same, or at least ONE guy who farts gigatons instead, to keep him in check. But then, how do you keep THEM in check? Now, you've just made the power gap you were trying to control even wider.

In summation, government authority doesn't work in superhero comics. They are, in fact, and objectivist/libertarian wet dream so long as the power is in the hands of those with merit.

edited 27th Apr '11 8:43:41 PM by KingZeal

blueharp Since: Dec, 1969
#5: Apr 27th 2011 at 8:43:47 PM

The Alpha Lanterns are the Manhunters Mk 2. I thought the Guardians already decided that was a mistake?

NitztheBloody Nitz the Bloody from SO CAL Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Nitz the Bloody
#6: Apr 27th 2011 at 8:55:29 PM

Also in the aforementioned Wolverine story, we learned that Nitro was being paid by the CEO of Damage Control to set the Civil War in motion, so they could get plenty of rebuilding contracts during the massive superhuman battles. If anyone besides Logan had stopped and paid attention, they'd realize they were playing directly into the culprits' hands.

We Are The Wyrecats Needs Tropes!
Ezekiel Since: Jan, 2001
#7: Apr 28th 2011 at 12:50:41 AM

I wish I had checked this earlier, so I could have been the one to point out how insanely oversimplistic the OP's stance is.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#8: Apr 28th 2011 at 5:52:33 AM

Then we have Civil War. Captain America decides to rebel when the government decides its time to start actually holding people accountable when they routinely wield the power to cause massive damage and casualties. The fanboys cried about how evil this all was and certainly there are some elements in Tony's approach that could be second guessed but the virulent hatred and frothing of the fanboys was far beyond what was warranted.

Fanboys had more a problem with the fact the writers decided to make sure the pro-registration side's argument is Jumping Off the Slippery Slope by making them Kick the Dog. Let's hire supervillains and make them hunt the heroes. Lets clone dead colleagues and use them to murder the opposition.

The argument, valid though it may be, becomes harder to support when everyone making it is made to act as a mustache twirling villain.

edited 28th Apr '11 5:52:59 AM by Ghilz

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#9: Apr 28th 2011 at 6:13:07 AM

I mean, honestly, that's kind of what you have to expect, though.

The entire point to superhero stories is that they're fantasy and most superheroes (even the ones who are fundamentally flawed like Marvel characters) are still heroes in the end. The modern model for government is "Real Politik", which basically states that the ends justifies the means so long as it preserves the status quo. Doing all kinds of outlandish crap on the hopes that things would turn out okay is exactly what you would expect from a government and exactly why superhero stories can't work when superheroes are treated solely as assets.

VampireBuddha Calendar enthusiast from Ireland (Wise, aged troper) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Calendar enthusiast
#10: Apr 28th 2011 at 4:35:07 PM

Not to add to the discussion or anything, but post 4 reminded me of this*

** .

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TeChameleon Since: Jan, 2001
#11: Apr 28th 2011 at 9:04:33 PM

Also in the aforementioned Wolverine story, we learned that Nitro was being paid by the CEO of Damage Control to set the Civil War in motion, so they could get plenty of rebuilding contracts during the massive superhuman battles. If anyone besides Logan had stopped and paid attention, they'd realize they were playing directly into the culprits' hands.

And that also had readers a bit up-in arms, since Damage Control was a much-beloved miniseries when it came out, and bloody hilarious to boot. Suddenly making them psychopathic douchebags didn't sit well. Civil War was poorly executed all over the place, with characters being imbeciles and/or wildly out of character, (the Marvel general public- nothing new there, admittedly- Reed Richards, Tony Stark... hell, just about everyone involved), plot contrivances getting stuffed down our throats... it's less 'comic readers hate authority' and more 'comic readers hate hackneyed, badly-executed plots that CHANGE EVERYTHING (until the next writer gets his hands on things)'.

As to the Guardians and the Alpha Lanterns... yeah, having Military Police/Internal Affairs for your cosmic supercops isn't a bad idea. The 'bad idea' end of things is when you repeat the same bloody mistake yet again and make them... well, basically drones. The Manhunters were a bad idea the first time, little boys blue. The Guardians seem to be functionally incapable of learning from their mistakes, and for all the 'knowledge' they're supposed to have, they really don't seem to 'get' how the minds of non-Guardians work, which leads to them making completely asinine decisions over and over and over and over and over and over and over and...

DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#12: Apr 28th 2011 at 9:37:07 PM

Marvel seems to be on a kick about retcons that makes people look worse.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
blueharp Since: Dec, 1969
#13: Apr 28th 2011 at 9:48:54 PM

Yeah, did you know Uncle Ben was attacked by that burglar because May threw him out of the house for sleeping around?

NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#14: Apr 28th 2011 at 9:52:38 PM

[up] It speaks a lot about current Marvel, the fact I can't tell if that statement was serious or not.

DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#15: Apr 28th 2011 at 10:01:07 PM

[up]Me too.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Ezekiel Since: Jan, 2001
#16: Apr 29th 2011 at 3:21:39 AM

...I'd say it can't be true because it would completely destroy Spider-Man's backstory, but...

edited 29th Apr '11 3:21:53 AM by Ezekiel

Reynard531 Since: Jul, 2012
#17: Apr 23rd 2012 at 3:39:39 PM

QUOTE As to the Guardians and the Alpha Lanterns... yeah, having Military Police/Internal Affairs for your cosmic supercops isn't a bad idea. The 'bad idea' end of things is when you repeat the same bloody mistake yet again and make them... well, basically drones. The Manhunters were a bad idea the first time, little boys blue. The Guardians seem to be functionally incapable of learning from their mistakes, and for all the 'knowledge' they're supposed to have, they really don't seem to 'get' how the minds of non-Guardians work, which leads to them making completely asinine decisions over and over and over and over and over and over and over and...

A friend of mine had a saying: There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. Knowledge is knowing "hey, it's raining outside", and wisdom is saying "hey, it's raining outside, better take an umbrella". Knowledge is the having of information, while wisdom is the proper application of that information. So it can be said that while the Guardians have great knowledge, they are seriously lacking in the wisdom department.

edited 23rd Apr '12 3:40:32 PM by Reynard531

TiggersAreGreat Since: Mar, 2011
#18: Apr 23rd 2012 at 5:35:04 PM

From what I've seen, Comic Book writers themselves seem to have problems with authority.

In Marvel Comics, you have the U.S. Government. A number of stories have strongly indicated that it is made up of Complete Monsters, Sleazy Politicians, Obstructive Bureaucrats, Politically Incorrect Villains, and the list goes on. Avengers Vs X Men has The Avengers attacking the X Men on behalf of the government. Oddly enough, a number of X-Men have served on the Avengers, even though the government is anti-mutant. How long do you think before an event comes up titled "Marvel Super Heroes Vs. The US Government"? evil grin

In DC Comics, you should get a load of the authority in Gotham City. There are Sleazy Politicians, Corrupt Cops, and other unsavoury individuals supposedly controlling Gotham. If I was an average citizen, I would move out as soon as possible!

Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#19: Apr 23rd 2012 at 5:52:48 PM

[up] Marvel's political leanings completely baffle me. A number of creators there (notably not including Mark Millar) have apparently said that the "security" side of the "liberty vs. security" debate in Civil War was supposed to be right, which is a typically right-wing position, but they allowed Obama to be the heroic President during Dark Reign, but, apparently, the sliding timescale has now retconned him to be the President who made Osborn top cop in the first place (which Word of God at the time said was Bush), with Captain America calling him out on it in the pages of Secret Avengers, complete with throwing his Nobel Prize into the sea!

As to Marvel Heroes vs. The Government, I actually think that would be an excellent Grand Finale for the Marvel Universe; companies don't last forever, after all, so they're bound to need one sooner or later!

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#20: Apr 23rd 2012 at 8:58:19 PM

There's a very simple reason why governments and corporations are corrupt in superhero comics: They have the resources to be threats. A homeless guy isn't going to be building death rays.

The creators aren't opposing authority, it's just that authorities make for good villains. It's not about morality, it's about convenience.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
Gray64 Since: Dec, 1969
#21: Apr 24th 2012 at 9:36:51 PM

As far as a storytelling narrative goes, if traditional authority worked, there'd be no need for vigilantes or superheroes. Once, when asked why his version of Batman's Gotham City was such a Crapsack World, Frank Miller said he couldn't imagine any other kind of city needing a Batman.

I do, however, think that a lot of comics fans who actively dislike Superman do so because they have issues with accepting the idea that great power can be used responsibly. While I am a Superman fan, I'll admit there are good reasons why someone might dislike the character; not being able to believe that anyone could possess that much power and behave in a benevolent, responsible manner just seems sad in a "that says more about you than it does about him" kind of way.

VampireBuddha Calendar enthusiast from Ireland (Wise, aged troper) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Calendar enthusiast
#22: Apr 25th 2012 at 8:57:12 AM

I've had a ponder about this, and I think the OP made the common error of using comic book fans to mean superhero fans.

The question of superhero fans' dislike of authority is at heart concerned with the very nature of a superhero. A superhero works alone or as part of a small, voluntary group; that's simply how they are. About the only authority they might recognise in the course of superheroing is that it's a good idea to do what the leader of the team says, and even then, not always.

In short, authority is not a part of being a superhero. It's not that they're imiscible or anything, it's just that authority is to superheroes as snowmen are to cars.

Furthermore, superheroes are by definition the good guys. Therefore, one who IN POSSESSION OF ALL THE FACTS knowingly opposes a superhero is a villain.

Therefore, a politician who attempts to exercise authority over a superhero is by definition a villain, because they come from outside the superheroes' metaphorical world to interfere with their superheroing. You know, supervillain stuff. Hence, fans interpret an attempt to exert authority over the characters they follow as an act that is evil by nature, because it acts against the protagonist.

As a counterpoint to all this, consider Judge Dredd. Even though Dredd and the Judges are fascists (seriously, their uniform was based on that worn by the police in fascist Spain), there have been plenty of people who see this system as a good idea, primarily because since Dredd is the protagonist, the reader is encouraged to empathise with him and agree with his oppressive, right-wing views.

In the same way, reading something like Captain America or Spider-Man invites us to identify with the title characters' views, which would tend towards social libertarianism because exercise of authority prevents those characters from doing what they are supposed to do.

Ukrainian Red Cross
TiggersAreGreat Since: Mar, 2011
#23: Apr 26th 2012 at 6:13:22 AM

Maybe a story should be written that does a Deconstruction of a Crapsack World in which authority is corrupt and ineffective, and needs a superhero to handle problems effectively.

Yeah, it starts off with a CW that is similar to Frank Miller's vision of Gotham City. As time goes by, the average citizens and bystanders come to realize that the city they're in is beyond any hope of repair or getting better. So, when they find much better places out there to be, they just up and leave, and firmly decide to never come back. The city ends up having only the superhero and his allies on one side and all the bad guys on the other side. Since there's no middle party to protect or pick on (i.e. the average citizens or bystanders), all-out war gets declared between the two sides. This war ends up destroying the city entirely and Kill Em All occurs for everybody in the city. Meanwhile, the average citizens and bystanders, upon hearing the news, are breathing a sigh of relief that this CW is destroyed, and congratulating themselves on being wise enough to seek newer and better environments that has much better authority.

What do you think, guys? Does this story sound like a good Deconstruction?

Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!
VampireBuddha Calendar enthusiast from Ireland (Wise, aged troper) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Calendar enthusiast
#24: Apr 26th 2012 at 7:57:01 AM

That's not what deconstruction means.

However, I think there is potential there.

Ukrainian Red Cross
CodeRobin Islam lym Al-Ḥaqq. Since: Apr, 2012
Islam lym Al-Ḥaqq.
#25: Apr 27th 2012 at 1:44:45 AM

It's the Fundamental Error of Fiction (a theory that I think needs some troping to work but still works for this site) "Reality is Wrong" literally so many of our trope tie from those three words its staggling. Here it manifest as the Supers being better than our IRL showcaes, so any instance of opposition makes the Government look like villains. Actually Making the Superheroes the Government is something that solves this issue, and has been done a lot before.

edited 27th Apr '12 1:45:41 AM by CodeRobin

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