Description is too long: Determinator

For a trope that can be explained in one line or 6 words ( a character that never gives up), the trope description is too big and with unessesary information.

Would like permission to reduce the description to a paragraph ( or maybe 2)

Btw if we reduce the description we could use anothet quote :) ( I know 2 quotes Max)

edited 26th Apr '11 10:15:25 PM by FallenLegend

Are you sure that's not Fridge Brilliance, and should be indexed under Self Demonstrating Articles?

Hm, I'd probably cut out the section that specifies Anti Heroes and the Shonen paragraph.

Bumping to ask one question; is the "take it too far" part necessary? Not only is it subjective, but it also seems at odds with the way some examples' determination is played at times.

I'd switch it to "just won't give up" or something.

Will do.

What is the problem with a long description? I mean, as long we describe fully in the first few paragraphs, I see no problem in using a bit more to elaborate its uses in different media/context. I see no reason for cutting the anti-heroes and the shonen paragraph, as it does help to explain how Determinator is used in these context.

(the shonen part is unnecessary because it fails at elaborating the subject)

edited 30th Apr '11 12:41:03 PM by Heatth

My sentiments exactly.

EDIT: Though while the sentence (not paragraph) about shonen anime doesn't elaborate on the trope's usage, it certainly makes note of a genre where one may find this trope in use with great frequency. I'd say something like that is acceptable in a description and can be worth pointing out.

edited 30th Apr '11 1:16:49 PM by SeanMurrayI

I sorta agree about the shonen, but I think we could use a better elaboration there.

Nothing wrong with elaboration, if anyone wants to add it, sure, but it's not entirely essential.

I mean, if there's something unique about The Determinator's use in shonen anime that anyone wants to add, that's perfectly alright, but if it's not all that different from the more general points of the trope's description, the simple mention that The Determinator is commonly found in these types of works will still suffice.

Given the thread's OP, it would be HI-LA-RI-OUS, if we would decide that the solution for the paragraph about Shonen Anime is EVEN MORE DESCRIPTION.

edited 30th Apr '11 1:28:53 PM by EternalSeptember

^Why would that be hilarious? A trope description can be as long as a piece of Russian literature if somebody wanted to write something that lengthy to describe a single concept, provided that what's being said isn't redundant or completely irrelevant.

Even if the very basics of a trope can be summarized in just one short sentence or a handful of words, that doesn't mean we should not elaborate about how or why a trope may be used or appear in fiction and media, and if there's room for greater elaboration on anything in the description that someone feels like adding, then editors are very welcome to add to it.

There's always the Laconic Wiki if anyone ever just wants to read definitions and summaries of concepts that are as trite as possible.

edited 30th Apr '11 1:50:00 PM by SeanMurrayI

It is hilarious because the OP thinks the description is too long, and it should be shortened. Yet, here are we, suggesting to expand it.

I don't agree with the OP, but it would be funny if the measure we take was the exact opposite of the one being asked.

Personally, I'd only find the idea humorous had the OP actually had a valid point to make...

Anyway, more to the point, I don't think it's entirely necessary to expand any part of the description as it currently stands. If anyone does see room for an additional bit of detail that can clarify or better explain any particular part of the current description, it's fine, but it shouldn't be an imperative measure to be taken or require a forum consensus.

edited 30th Apr '11 2:19:29 PM by SeanMurrayI

Long descriptions are often meandering and opaque. Oftentimes they include unnecessary and confusing elements like Example as a Thesis that bury the trope definition under a mass of qualifications and digression—a potential cause of Trope Decay. So it's good to trim these things when they get out of hand like this.

Usually, a good way to preserve extra content is to move a chunk of it onto the Analysis page instead.

edited 30th Apr '11 5:42:04 PM by troacctid

I am fine with reworking the trope, if you feel it is needed. I am not fine with cutting part of the description.

I don't feel this description is confusing. The first 2 paragraphs are the actual description. They are what define the trope.

The next 5 are just describing how the trope is commonly played in different contexts. They are not particularly needed, but they hardly make the description more confusing, as they explicitly specify the context in the start. They are useful, for they help to make the reader understand how the trope can be played differently. Cutting then is jsut denying useful information to the readers.

Finally, the last 2 paragraphs are the standard 'closing trope' paragraphs. "Compare", "See also" and "Not to be confused with" (not with that exact words, but whatever), which is necessary.

I do think the 6th and 7th paragraphs could use a rework, though. They are kinda confusing. They hardly make the trope more confusing to understand, as a whole, but they add little as they are right now.

The trope being played in different contexts is what the Analysis page is for. The description would be less confusing for people who don't know the trope if there was a link at the bottom saying: For more in depth analysis of this trope in different genres see Analysis.Determinator.

edited 30th Apr '11 5:55:04 PM by shimaspawn

Personally, I've never seen any trope with an analysis page. As far I was aware, information about the trope aways goes in the main page.

Anyway, I still can't see what harm the long description is doing.

^^ The paragraphs we're contending over on The Determinator, however, carry a purpose of describing the trope's presence and function in various forms of fiction and media, both of which are incredibly important in defining and describing any and all tropes.

Analysis pages are more suited for the sincere pondering of the purpose and nature of the trope's very existence (for example, contemplations on "how cultural norms helped shape a fictitious concept"... or "how a fictitious concept defines cultural norms", etc.). It's all a lot more pretentious than anything on this page, really (and usually very, very speculative).

Analysis pages are also supposed to be primarily intended for discussions on the underlying messages and themes in works and how tropes are used in those works to convey their messages and themes.

edited 30th Apr '11 6:21:31 PM by SeanMurrayI

Heatth: Analysis.Zombie Apocalypse was made specifically because everything in it was strewn throughout the description.

As a general view: I feel that descriptions should be around [half a page long on my screen], longer and it starts to look like a Wall of Text where somebody got into an essay writing mood. Most of what winds up there, belongs on the Analysis or Useful Notes page, depending on trope type.

Zombie Apocalypse is about as big as Determinator, tough. Also, I wasn't saying analysis pages for trope don't exist. Just that, have not ever finding one, they are not wild spread.

Furthermore, Sean Murray has a good point. The presence and functions of the trope should really be in the main page.

I have a strong dislike for any mention of "[medium] uses it a lot" as it sounds a great deal like someone is trying to either gather attention for their medium of choice, or that somebody tried to set up a medium specific trope that got broadened and they're trying to make their medium special again. If it's used extensively in a medium, the examples section will show it.

It would be hilariously meta if our Determinator article became so long that only a Real Life determinator could read it all.

It's already in the too long, didn't read territory that encourages people to just ignore the article and just assume they know the trope. Seriously, most of the description is not needed.

Such as?