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Alright, this is going a bit too far.

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Wulf Gotta trope, dood! from Louisiana Since: Jan, 2001
Gotta trope, dood!
#176: Apr 28th 2011 at 12:52:34 PM

We do not want administrative decisions to take over the presentation of the wiki. We don't want 30% height banners across the top of every page screaming "COME TO THE FORUMS TO DISCUSS JUST BUGS ME RENAME." Most visitors, that 99% of people who only read the site, don't give a crap. Of the 1% who do edit, the ones who care enough to contribute to administrative decisions are probably already here on the forums. The rest, well, there's a price to be paid for not caring.

And you don't necessarily need to do that. Even adding a button at the top bar that says "Wiki Headlines" would be nice. Hell, put a star or a watchlist-dot on it when there's new ones. The problem with about assuming that people who care are on the forums and people that don't aren't is this— I care, and am on the forums, and I still don't know when stuff happens. Case in point- I didn't know anything happened to YKTTW until that post.

edited 28th Apr '11 12:58:55 PM by Wulf

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#177: Apr 28th 2011 at 12:57:02 PM

Hmm, I read the Wiki Talk and Tech Wishlist (and now Special Efforts) forums daily, and have done so long before becoming a mod. But there are far too many discussions going on at any given time for a headlines feature to meaningfully include all of them.

[up] The new YKTTW design is in beta and has been for a week or so.

edited 28th Apr '11 12:58:57 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#178: Apr 28th 2011 at 12:58:53 PM

[up][up] Good call. An expanded version of Wiki Headlines displayed on people's watchlists would work nicely. You can probably stick it on the right since their is a lot of empty space there.

Edit: I don't expect everything to be included...but any multi-page policy decision or cleanup should be ideally.

edited 28th Apr '11 1:02:01 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#179: Apr 28th 2011 at 1:01:02 PM

I'm not sure what function this would serve that reading the thread titles in Wiki Talk and Special Efforts doesn't already. At what point do we decide something is significant enough to become a headline? The Headscratchers thing is a headline and was announced several days before the change.

The discussion about YKTTW features has been ongoing for, well, years really, but we just got serious about it this past month. It's been a sore in the wiki's side for ages. I imagine it'll get headlined once we get closer to final release.

edited 28th Apr '11 1:04:49 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#180: Apr 28th 2011 at 1:05:47 PM

In that case, it goes back to my original question: How do we get more people on the forums?

And don't say "they would be already if they cared"...just don't. Wulf and I already addressed why that's flawed logic.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#181: Apr 28th 2011 at 1:07:30 PM

Good question. Any suggestions?

edited 28th Apr '11 1:07:40 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#182: Apr 28th 2011 at 1:09:40 PM

First, my apologies, I was still constructing my huge ass essay like monstrosity of a post when you replied, so sorry.

Better the honey than the vinegar, eh? I'll take that into consideration. For your part, do me a favor and tell your friends that we invite constructive criticism

I do try. However, most of them have seen the threads both here, and on Ask The Tropers, and they don't have the confidence that they'll be listened to. In fact they think they'll be lambasted for "whining". How about, saying you invite people with polite concerns. For a start that means people who feel worried and uncertain are included rather than making them feel like they need an action plan to speak up.

You want an answer to that? I ascribe it generally to GIFT

I honestly believe that while threats and insults are a bad thing and should be warned over, anger should be understood. When people feel powerless, confused, and disenfranchised, anger is often the first response. In a perfect world it wouldn't be of course, but... So I would suggest, and this I've said to people I have trained in real life for problem resolution, that you ignore the anger part and address the underlying issue in a supportive manner. Let the angry part just float over your head, it is rarely the point of the post. Also consider in a text only medium it is often easy to misconstrue a persons intent. If you expect an angry bitter post, then it'll seem to you that posts written in worry are written in anger.

Again, I refer you to the very first post in this thread as an example of the kind of unproductive complaining I'm talking about. I don't see any value in allowing this type of thing to become the standard means of expressing displeasure.

Well as you say, you've already seen it become so. Same thing over and over again. Move forward, accept it has happened and plan how to deal with it. Deal with it by accepting they are expressing displeasure, and work out how to convert that (usually) one off expression of discontent into satisfaction. Like I say 99% of people just want to say their piece and have it acknowledged that somewhere it is being listened to. Even if nothing changes.

Regardless of whether their complaint is valid or not
I'd rephrase that not as a complaint, but as a concern. Lets stop looking at these as complaints, they are userbase concerns. If we treated them as people being conernced and worried, then you understand more about where they are coming from.

edited 28th Apr '11 1:11:39 PM by CrypticMirror

TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#183: Apr 28th 2011 at 1:13:48 PM

Hmmm. Maybe we can find a way to link work-specific threads (like, for example, the Order Of The Stick thread) on the main page. Nothing as obtrusive as a TRS tag, but just another little button to click on. That could act as a nice little gateway.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#184: Apr 28th 2011 at 1:14:00 PM

[up][up] Again, however, some of the worries and concerns are about things that are simply not going to change. We aren't going to put subjectives back in Main, or restore So Bad Its Horrible, or let people Natter. Further, renames will happen, they'll be discussed in TRS, and we are not going to headline TRS.

It's true that we need more interested tropers to become involved before changes actually occur, but I'm sort of hanging for ideas on how to make that happen without being overly intrusive.

[up] That idea has come up quite a bit, usually as an alternative to WMG (and Just Bugs Me, before it became Headscratchers). Eddie's against it, though. (I'm for it, for the record.)

edited 28th Apr '11 1:15:25 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Wulf Gotta trope, dood! from Louisiana Since: Jan, 2001
Gotta trope, dood!
#185: Apr 28th 2011 at 1:15:24 PM

I'm not sure what function this would serve that reading the thread titles in Wiki Talk and Special Efforts doesn't already. At what point do we decide something is significant enough to become a headline? The Headscratchers thing is a headline and was announced before the change.

It's true that it was a headline and announced before the change, but looking at the thread the discussion and crowner had been up for 10 days before it got turned into one*

. In general, you can just use your best judgement- YMMV move? Headline it. Standardizing "Theater/" to "Theatre/" Probably doesn't need one. Just bugs me to headscratchers- Go for it. Besides that, a lot of Wiki Talk isn't policy shifts, just people asking "Hey, this bug is happening." or "How do I...?"

EDIT: As for the YKTTW change- I knew the idea had been toyed with on and off of changing it for a few years, but I'd never heard anything about it actually being done. That said, the new design looks nice, and effective, although I'm not sure about the "If it sounds like a line of dialog, don't use it as a working title" note on there. That's neither here nor there, though. More importantly, this is another of those "should have been headlined" things.

edited 28th Apr '11 1:19:19 PM by Wulf

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#186: Apr 28th 2011 at 1:19:01 PM

It's not like there aren't already a handful of work pages that just put a link to our forum thread in the work description. (*cough* Girl Genius *cough*) I'm not certain that's technically allowed, but it happens anyway, so...

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#187: Apr 28th 2011 at 1:24:13 PM

I've read over this entire article and I only have a few things to add.

One, I am here for the tropes, not the community. I do enjoy finding people here who can hold a good conversation and discussion about tropes, but I tend to ignore any topic on the forums that is unnilateral bashing. The fact that TV Tropes has had to change it's format over the years is basically mandatory for a site with such a vast goal in mind. Imagine if we didn't have the namespaces and had only one page to discuss Batman. The deletion or renaming of various tropes is in consideration that the users on the site are continually growing and we can't afford to be in-jokey, imagine I Am Not Making This Up still around with several thousand new users thinking it's okay to use it as troper-speak.

Two, I would guess 90 percent of bans is due to edit warring, vandalizing the articles or repeatedly ignoring warnings for poor editing practices (ie inserting bias attitudes). The remaining 10 percent is for being generally obnoxious and trolling behavior in the forums or discussions. If you're capable of presenting your argument rationally and civilly, you will never be banned for that. I don't think the mods have ever suggested otherwise. I try to treat everyone with a degree of respect, both online and in Real Life, and I have never run afoul of the mods because of that.

Three (and the most important one), I find that a positive viewpoint leads to intelligent conversations, at least far more than a negative outlook. And I absolutely adore the pages that give a very balanced observation of the reactions people have on a show, movie or trope, as it leaves the reader to draw their own conclusion. Batman Forever and Independence Day are the first that come to mind.

As an example I will point out Fridge Brilliance, which is largely about tropers discussing insights they had on a particular project. Even though it is rooted in the troper community as opposed to being an actual trope, it retains the spirit of the site in its goal of literary discussion. As a result that page almost embodies TV Tropes Will Enhance Your Life. As a contrast Dethroning Moment Of Suck is almost no different than any other forum you can find on the internet, it's people bitching about tv shows and movies. I'm not here for that.

edited 28th Apr '11 1:25:49 PM by KJMackley

CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#188: Apr 28th 2011 at 1:29:40 PM

Again, however, some of the worries and concerns are about things that are simply not going to change. We aren't going to put subjectives back in Main, or restore So Bad Its Horrible, or let people Natter. Further, renames will happen, they'll be discussed in TRS, and we are not going to headline TRS.

Just because they aren't going to change is not going to stop people feeling unhappy or concerned. And I would wager non-insignificant sums of money that most of them know that. What it is is they are unhappy about the way the changes were rolled out. We have a site that says it listens to its userbase, and they don't feel listened to.

How do you resolve that? Well it is a two part solution. Long-term, it is to make sure communication is increased, and the processes of change are more consistent. So that people feel their views are taken on board prior to the change. Now you say you are on that, so lets leave it to one side.

The immediate problem is the people knocking on the door right now. Now that is a tough one, you've just got to be reassuring, friendly and conciliatory.

Yes there was a change, yes you understand that some people are having a problem and are worried, no you aren't ignoring them and you are monitoring the situation, yes your input matters, you are a vital part of this site as are all the other tvtropers. We need to keep updating the site, but we'll make sure that when we do change things in future we will make an effort to bring more people on board with the changes beforehand and make sure we only make them when totally necessary.

See, all friendly and open. Do you know what is a great technique for turning an angry contact to more neutral one, say you aren't sure what they are asking and ask them to rephrase it a bit. You may be able to understand fine, but something is wonderful for defusing a situation is just saying "I'm sorry, I'm not too sure what you are asking there. Can you just explain it for me again?". Those that are just venting will leave it, those that are actually wanting a response will think about it again, and probably put it better.

It's true that we need more interested tropers to become involved before changes actually occur, but I'm sort of hanging for ideas on how to make that happen without being overly intrusive.

I'd argue that if the current system isn't getting people involved then it does need to be more overt. Make the headlines more noticeable, put them out earlier. Right when a change is being considered, openly solicit opinions, and make sure even when someone says "no change" that you acknowledge they have that opinion. I'd also suggest strongly, moderating those threads more heavily so that the usual suspects who cry "you can't just say no change" are told not to say that. Because that is really part of what puts people off posting. No one likes being at the bottom of a dogpile (well, maybe furries). If someone says "no change", the mod has to impartially acknowledge that opinion. You don't have to act on it of course, but acknowledge the person holding it and accept it is as valid as anyone else's, because that is all most people want. TO be regarded as a valid member of the community.

edited 28th Apr '11 1:37:45 PM by CrypticMirror

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#189: Apr 28th 2011 at 1:37:11 PM

Yes there was a change, yes you understand that some people are having a problem and are worried, no you aren't ignoring them and you are monitoring the situation, yes your input matters, you are a vital part of this site as are all the other tvtropers. We need to keep updating the site, but we'll make sure that when we do change things in future we will make an effort to bring more people on board with the changes beforehand and make sure we only make them when totally necessary.
So, I should copy that and keep it in a text file as a generic reply to a post entitled "You guys suck for doing X thing I don't like"? This isn't the only moderated site I've participated in. A lot of the ones I have are quite a bit more draconian even than you accuse us of being (never mind how we actually are). It just doesn't seem reasonable to dignify a post like that with a conciliatory response.

I don't see this as a "customer service" issue. Moderators are not CS reps. They are responsible for keeping things civil and productive.

I'd say that the "no change" (and Me Too!) posts are better summarized in the crowner voting system anyway, as they don't really contribute to the discussion. If you're going to say, "This is a horrible idea," at least be prepared to express why.

edited 28th Apr '11 1:41:16 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#190: Apr 28th 2011 at 1:43:50 PM

I'd re-word it a bit to tailor it to individual concerns if I were you, but it is the general sentiment. I suppose you could just cut'n'paste, but places that do generally find it loses its effectiveness after a while and end up employing someone to put a more individual spin on things.

Trouble is though, you can't get a crowner unless you express dissent. If you express dissent you get dogpiled. So unless you're willing to write a thesis, you have to hope someone else speaks up. If no one does, because no one likes getting dogpiled, then a change happens sans crowner, so they don't have a venue to make their opinion known, and so they feel ignored, disenfranchised, and bitter so they come to the forum and...

You can see how it keeps going around. In all honesty, set consistent procedures combined with an open door policy and respect for even "negative" opinions will resolve most concerns before they becomes so. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure after all.

edited 28th Apr '11 1:47:00 PM by CrypticMirror

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#191: Apr 28th 2011 at 1:52:39 PM

I don't see the dogpiling to which you refer, as long as the poster keeps away from wild hyperbole or insulting the wiki. Care to name examples?

I've personally expressed my dislike for many renames in the course of my participation in TRS. Most TRS threads fail to cause a rename. So again I'm not sure what the problem is. I get that there's a perception of a problem, but unfortunately I don't know how to cure a perception of something that is not, in fact, true.

And FYI, people don't get banned for expressing unpopular opinions. They may get their thread locked, though, or get thumped, if they don't follow the rules.

edited 28th Apr '11 1:55:12 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#192: Apr 28th 2011 at 1:55:34 PM

okay, we are back to the "cite examples or get out" phase. There is no point in continuing right now. I've offered my opinion, I've said where there look like problems, I've offered solutions. I don't see a point going forward with anything else right now. It is almost ten pm here, so I'm off to bed, good night.

INUH Since: Jul, 2009
#193: Apr 28th 2011 at 1:56:45 PM

Okay, we are back to the "cite examples or get out" phase. There is no point in continuing right now.
I have trouble not interpreting this as "I can't actually find any examples of the problem I'm talking about."

Infinite Tree: an experimental story
Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
#194: Apr 28th 2011 at 1:58:21 PM

Fighteer, I get a vibe that you are not even seriosuly considering what is proposed. "Keep it in text file"? I said I should stay away, but when mod, one the msot prominent one(seriously, I see more than anyone else) acts like "Pff, dude, whatever" to serious propositions and suggestions, it makes me feel even more powerless. Why participate in conversation and attempt to improve TV Tropes when mods do not even care about you?

edited 28th Apr '11 2:06:13 PM by Mandemo

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#195: Apr 28th 2011 at 2:01:39 PM

I don't get that there are any serious propositions in play here. Everything you've said so far could be summarized as, "Dude, be a bit nicer to people." Which I acknowledge. We've discussed the need for more transparency in major wiki operations. Fine, also acknowledged.

I have stated, repeatedly, that if your problem is that you "don't like the direction the wiki is headed", then your options are to participate in the direction setting of the wiki or suck it up. If you want to participate, you need to be civil about it.

Is there anything else here, or are we done?

edited 28th Apr '11 2:03:37 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#196: Apr 28th 2011 at 2:02:47 PM

Getting more people involved in the forums, again, although perhaps that is best for another thread.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
#197: Apr 28th 2011 at 2:07:02 PM

This was supposed to part of previous post, but got ninjad...

Also I like to point the consistency. Right now, guidelines style is failing. Set down rules. Right now, TV tropes works on common law style, de facto*

, where we got precedent and then we argue what to do based on it. We need more de jure* , "set in stone" approach, where we have clear, "this is how things are" instead of current system where decision is based solely on who got the decision power. Having clear consstency aalso helps to calm down people when, even if unable to input, they see clear "well, it follow the rules set to us". In current system, one can think "WTF? Don't we have these that contradict decision? Why are they kept?"* .

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#198: Apr 28th 2011 at 2:08:46 PM

That's because Eddie doesn't like lots of hard, set in stone rules. This is probably the source of much of the complaining, but I guess that's just how it is, unless he changes his stance on the matter.

edited 28th Apr '11 2:08:58 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DrStarky Okay Guy from Corn And Pig Land Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
Okay Guy
#199: Apr 28th 2011 at 2:16:52 PM

I absolutely adore the pages that give a very balanced observation of the reactions people have on a show, movie or trope, as it leaves the reader to draw their own conclusion. Batman Forever and Independence Day are the first that come to mind.

This.

There is nothing inherently entertaining about being told what to think even if you agree with it.

Leave it to crictics to make opinions worth reading. Tv Tropes is nuetral without being bland.

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian
Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
#200: Apr 28th 2011 at 2:47:08 PM

[up][up]Pehaps we don't need complete rules set, more like procedures how to run things. Like, how to act incase of need to change policy or do major decisions. Or that when deciding changes, certain conditions must be met or something, need time to think excat rule suggestions.

And before actualy making such rules, make big fatass banner that cover 90% of page scrolls so people see it tongue Add hald naked ladies to do lapdance, or jsut just add pair of breast with tiny text 'we are doing changes'

On another question, is it possible to move Wiki headlines to above ad, instead of below add? It might make it more noticeable. If you scroll down, you are most likely reading something and not paying attension to sidebar, but if we place it above ad, ad can be seen and you might pay more attension to headline. Or is it contract stuff, that it needs to be excatly in that location?

edited 28th Apr '11 2:49:41 PM by Mandemo


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