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shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#151: Apr 27th 2011 at 7:22:12 PM

[up] The headlines haven't been around for a couple of years. More like a couple of months. The fact that they weren't there before could be a big part of the reason that you didn't notice.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
dontcallmewave Brony? Moi? surely you jest! from My home Since: Nov, 2013
Brony? Moi? surely you jest!
#152: Apr 27th 2011 at 7:22:38 PM

Headlines are relatively new.

He who fights bronies should see to itthat he himself does not become a brony. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, Pinkie Pie gazes Also
MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#153: Apr 28th 2011 at 1:55:20 AM

If you want to know how people feel about a work, you go to the YMMV page. What's hard about that?

The fact that a lot of the opinions I was referring to were in the description. A work is more than the sum of its tropes.

SpellBlade Since: Dec, 1969
#154: Apr 28th 2011 at 2:01:34 AM

The fact that a lot of the opinions I was referring to were in the description. A work is more than the sum of its tropes.

Then you just get the opinion of whoever wrote the article - that can easily go in the reviews.

CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#155: Apr 28th 2011 at 6:03:40 AM

when something big goes on (like the Just Bugs Me pages being transferred to the head louse symptom) then it should go in the headlines a lot earlier. By the time it went in the headlines, people were already calling for a lock on the thread, and the crowner had been running for a bit. Stuff like that needs to go into the headlines right at the start. Same as with the YKTTW changes, I've not seen that in the headlines at all, should have been up there for a good while now.

Actually "headlines" is probably a bad name, "Wiki News", or "Wiki Actions" would be better. More urgent and attention getting. Minor language changes make big psychological differences after all.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#156: Apr 28th 2011 at 6:42:15 AM

Cryptic, there was never any question that the change was going to be made. You seem to be under the impression that more people knowing about it in advance would have made a difference. The majority of the troper body is so apathetic with regards to site administration that only an actual, done-deal change is going to get them to react. Hell, look how few threads we've actually gotten on the topic! Compared to the comments over You Fail X, it's noise, barely worth registering.

Backing up a bit, let me reiterate that discussing a work in generally complimentary tones in the description is perfectly fine. We are not trying to be Wikipedia — really, truly, honestly, no Tropers Law. Ideally, a person reading a work page for the first time would come away with some idea of why they'd want to watch/read it. Maybe it has a story element they like, maybe it has one of their favorite actors, maybe the premise is just so cool they can't stay away. It's also fine to snark a bit at works generally recognized as bad.

What we want to avoid is excessive gushing — "This is the BEST THING EVAR!" — which may turn off people looking for a more balanced perspective. For the same reason, complaining has no place in the description. Just because you didn't like something doesn't mean that nobody else can like it. Just because you and all your friends didn't like something doesn't mean that nobody else can like it. Further, lots of works have hatedoms. Quality works. If we let the Lord of the Rings haters write our article, it would be nothing but complaining over Adaptation Decay and They Changed It, Now It Sucks!. Despite the films being some of the most successful and most acclaimed in history.

Actually, when gushing or complaining is involved, one of two things tends to happen. Either it gets out of hand and the page turns into a love/bitchfest, or the competing fandoms turn it into an Edit War. Both are destructive to the wiki culture.

edited 28th Apr '11 6:53:13 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#157: Apr 28th 2011 at 7:15:25 AM

Cryptic, there was never any question that the change was going to be made. You seem to be under the impression that more people knowing about it in advance would have made a difference.

that isn't what I'm saying at all, no. I was just using that as an example because it was the most recent big change. What I'm saying is changes of any sort whether open to argument or not (in fact especially not) are always easier to implement if people know about them as early as possible and feel they have had a chance to contribute. Even if the decision (which is made before it starts) is one they disagree with, most people will accept it if they feel part of the process.

It is why Real Life organisations and governments spend so much time and money on consultation events and "staff buy-in surveys", the outcome is never in doubt, but the process makes people feel part of it. That is why I say stuff about using softer language, or being more open. It honestly does help with any diverse community, Trust Me I used to do this sort of stuff for a living. Saying "Just Accept It" is a recipe for rolling discontent in any community.

Also, and as an aside, don't sweat minor discontented statements. Once upon a time Sir Arthur Wellesly (Duke of Wellington to be) was asked why he permitted so much griping in his army. His reply was "My dear fellow, the infantry always gripes. I should be more worried if there were no complaints". One of the biggest mistakes many middle managers make in office-spaces is coming down heavily on staff complaints, when what they should be doing is offering reassurance and a degree of toleration. But that is irrelevant right now.

The majority of the troper body is so apathetic with regards to site administration that only an actual, done-deal change is going to get them to react. Hell, look how few threads we've actually gotten on the topic! Compared to the comments over You Fail X, it's noise, barely worth registering.

Which is fair enough, apart from the name finally chosen (it gives me a case of the psychosomatic itches), I'm fairly apathetic myself. It was just a good recent example, although from a buy-in POV it could have gone horribly wrong and that is why it is important to be consistent all the time. It means you aren't reliant on luck, and that everyone can see (and again it is the whole point about not just being fair, but being seen to be fair as well) that the process was followed and they got a chance to be part of it regardless of eventual outcome (pre-determined or not).

As you yourself pointed out, we have more and more people coming in, so we need to start looking at these things for a larger demographic POV. And that means constantly working on the buy-in and consumer relations POV. Tropers aren't just the employee analogues, they are also the customer analogue too.

TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#158: Apr 28th 2011 at 7:42:04 AM

On one hand, I highly doubt that tropers are representative of all users of the site. It's been clearly stated the latter far outnumbers the former, and it's the latter who we have to cater to more.

On the other hand, I also doubt it's possible to precisely determine the reactions of all those users. For your average troper, it's pretty much impossible, because they don't have access to the data Fast Eddie has. Most tropers (myself included) have little more than the reaction of other tropers to go on. It's something everyone needs to keep in mind - in terms of what gets used and what is liked, this wiki looks a lot different from Eddie's perspective than Average Troper X's.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#159: Apr 28th 2011 at 7:51:09 AM

Cryptic, we do agree that making more and earlier information available to the troper body about changes is a good thing, and Eddie's been making some small steps toward that lately.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
#160: Apr 28th 2011 at 9:22:52 AM

I agree with Cryptic Mirror that giving sense of being able to be part of process makes it easier to accept changes.

Part of apathy comes from the fact that you can't feel like you could do something. This is why I hate Tropers Law argument. It feels like once it is said, no matter what you say/do, you are automatically wrong. So if you go against something that admistration had called, you get called for trying to invoke Tropers Law and your argument is moot.

This might not be true. Most likely is not. But for a casual person such as I, who doesn't stay on TV tropes 24/7 reading every single thing(which is impossible), those few threads I manage to get a glimpse tend to go like this:

Troper 1: I do not like decision X.

Troper 2: Stop bitching. Stop trying to invoke Tropers Law. Lock thread.

Sorry, but that is what it seems.

Also, like Cryptic said, telling those who are not happy with decisions to "Shut up or GTFO" is not good way. It only enforces Orwellian image. The Complainer Is Always Wrong athmosphere is not good. Notice I said athmosphere, not attitude. If people feel something it doesn't matter what you say. If mods say "We accept opposing views" but you see only deletions, ridicule and such, you can't help but feel that they are lying.

I want to, once again, point out that I am not speaking "What is happening", what I am speaking about is "What community feels like is happening". Those two are not the same

edited 28th Apr '11 9:23:55 AM by Mandemo

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#161: Apr 28th 2011 at 9:47:09 AM

No, you're saying what you feel like is happening. You don't speak for "the community". Do you hold little private meetings where you bemoan the changes to the wiki and nominate spokespeople to sacrifice to the mods?

Lots of valid suggestions arise from complaints. But I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until I turn blue or Eddie fires me: "I don't like X" is not a valid complaint. It's an opinion, but so are "I like pie" and "blue is a dumb color." Opinions are great and all, but they don't really have much value without something constructive attached to them.

And we don't treat all threads like that. The ones we treat like that are the ones that start with things like this:

The wiki's current policy: Pretend that everything is perfect and that there is nothing to complain about, ever.

It'll be just like the tabletop RPG Paranoia, with enforced happiness and everything.

Seriously, quit doing all this stuff to discourage even the slightest bit of negativity. It's oppressive.

Blatant Lies about what the wiki's policies are. Unsubtle insults that we're a bunch of Orwellian dictators. Vague demand that we "stop doing stuff".

This. Is. Not. Helpful.

If you can't get that through your skull, then there's no point in continuing to have this conversation with you, and there will be mass bannings.

edited 28th Apr '11 9:53:14 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
#162: Apr 28th 2011 at 11:10:40 AM

You know, you are not helping with this. I do not claim to speak for the community, but if there are threads like thsi is does mean there is a part that feels like, no?

Anyway, I am done. For myself, it feels like any point I make you are going say "STFU You don't know what you are talkigna bout, GTFO if you can't accept". That is not good mod attitude. This ain't going anywhere, like always, so I am just going to back to being apathetic little troper, staying away from big boys game.

Oh yeah, and "Stop doing X" is not a threat. It's a request. To be a threat, it needs to have "Or Y will Z"

edited 28th Apr '11 11:12:43 AM by Mandemo

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#163: Apr 28th 2011 at 11:15:37 AM

We recognize that the sentiment exists. However, the core complaints of these tropers are simply not going to be addressed to their satisfaction. Remember what I said earlier, about going into a Ford dealership and demanding that they sell you a new Toyota? I also didn't say that was a threat. Read carefully. Your post earlier was a threat: start acknowledging our demands or we'll "riot".

edited 28th Apr '11 11:16:47 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
#164: Apr 28th 2011 at 11:21:04 AM

[up] I did not claim such thing. I said, if tension rises I could lead, not does lead. I said I do not know what might happen if community becomes unhappy, but said one example. Also, context was I was using nation and politics as example, where riot is one form. Protest woudl perhaps be better word, but goign back now and editing it would only confuse anyone else reading it...

Also, what were my demands?

Don't put words in my mouth.

edited 28th Apr '11 11:21:36 AM by Mandemo

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#165: Apr 28th 2011 at 11:38:42 AM

If people want to express their opinions by "rioting", "revolting", or whatever, we'll just ban them. No skin off our nose. Remember what I said about wanting productive conversation?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#166: Apr 28th 2011 at 12:03:49 PM

@Mandemo: The issue that Fighteer has with this thread isn't the solely the fact that it's complaining. It's the fact that it's nothing but complaining with no suggestions of how to fix the problem.

The current OP this:

The wiki's current policy: Pretend that everything is perfect and that there is nothing to complain about, ever.

It'll be just like the tabletop RPG Paranoia, with enforced happiness and everything.

Seriously, quit doing all this stuff to discourage even the slightest bit of negativity. It's oppressive.

Which basically boils down to "I don't like policy X, so get rid of it" and contains absolutely nothing of value. There are no suggestions of how to improve the wiki and no reasons for the complaint given other than "I don't like this".

If the post had been something along the lines of "The fact that the wiki seems to have a policy of [insert specific examples here] makes it seem like there's no place at all for opinions on the wiki. Therefore I propose that we [suggestion of how to fix the problem] so that we don't have this problem anymore." I don't think it generate the kind of response from the mods that it received.

But as it is, it simply adds nothing to the wiki.

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silver2195 Since: Jan, 2001
#167: Apr 28th 2011 at 12:09:18 PM

I actually don't have many issues with the actual wiki policies, but the way Fighteer and Eddie present them often rubs me the wrong way. For example, while I believe that Fighteer simply wants to keep negativity in the right places, he sometimes makes statements that seem to suggest a harsher stance.

Currently taking a break from the site. See my user page for more information.
Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
#168: Apr 28th 2011 at 12:12:46 PM

[up]What I tried to say. Thanks silver.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#169: Apr 28th 2011 at 12:15:42 PM

See what Japanese Teeth just wrote.

[down] I don't hang out there so that's not a very useful referent.

edited 28th Apr '11 12:16:46 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
silver2195 Since: Jan, 2001
#170: Apr 28th 2011 at 12:15:51 PM

Ironically, what I'm asking for here would actually be a form of making the site more like Wikipedia: I would appreciate if the mods would use the same kind of tone that Wikipedia mods do.

[up]I get what you're saying, but some of your posts in this thread, read in isolation, don't seem to be saying that.

Edit: I guess taking a more calm and "professional" tone.

edited 28th Apr '11 12:18:09 PM by silver2195

Currently taking a break from the site. See my user page for more information.
Wulf Gotta trope, dood! from Louisiana Since: Jan, 2001
Gotta trope, dood!
#171: Apr 28th 2011 at 12:18:22 PM

Few things-

  • Even if it doesn't come with an "...and this is how we could make things better," that there are complaints should be taken into account. I may not have any idea what would be better, but I should at least be able to say, hey, I don't like that you did this. If the goal is to make the maximum number of people happy/neutral to a change while still fixing whatever's broken, even saying "Look, sorry, but we had to do this because X, threadlock" is a lot better than "Too bad, it's done, we're not changing it, your complaining is pointless, threadlock"
  • I agree with the sentiment that changes, even those already set in stone, need to be announced ahead of time. I didn't find out Just Bugs Me was to be changed to Headscratchers until I went to the homepage and was curious about what the question mark was. Not being included in the creative process bugs me, and I actually somewhat agree with the change. For another example- the mainspace move being talked about— If we do wind up doing it (or are doing it, or whatever), threads like that need to be mentioned in a headline once the idea's even being toyed with. As soon as a mod or admin comes in and says "Sure, if you really want to, you can move works out of main/" there should be a headline that says "Hey, we're thinking about starting to move works out of main/", come talk about it in this thread.
  • I have a suspicion that the reason tropers seem so apathetic is related to the above- By the time most of this stuff gets decided, no one's even heard about it. Why even bother saying you don't like Just Bugs Me getting turned to Headscratchers if it's already done and your thread will be locked if you don't already have an idea for a better name?
  • Pretty sure what Mandemo means by "revolt" or "riot" or what have you doesn't necessarily mean "mass-vandalize the site". More likely, a "well, fuck this, then." followed by people up and leaving. Sure, they'll be replaced, but it'd be better if they didn't have to be.

edited 28th Apr '11 12:27:13 PM by Wulf

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#172: Apr 28th 2011 at 12:32:35 PM

Responses:

  1. We are capable of reading and understanding the difference between bitching and reasonable complaints. If I sound harsh, it's because I'm sick of seeing the same things over and over.
  2. This is a valid concern, but one that can only really be addressed by Eddie.
  3. We do not want administrative decisions to take over the presentation of the wiki. We don't want 30% height banners across the top of every page screaming "COME TO THE FORUMS TO DISCUSS JUST BUGS ME RENAME." Most visitors, that 99% of people who only read the site, don't give a crap. Of the 1% who do edit, the ones who care enough to contribute to administrative decisions are probably already here on the forums. The rest, well, there's a price to be paid for not caring.
  4. While we don't set out to alienate people, if a decision upsets you enough that you leave the site, that's really not anything that we're going to be able to fix. This isn't a zero sum game where we have to carefully add up everyone's opinions on a topic before deciding it.

The above said, we have reverted or declined to execute changes when they were overwhelmingly unpopular. None of the major changes made recently (IJBM, Headscratchers, YKTTW) have inspired that kind of response. Not even close.

edited 28th Apr '11 12:35:11 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#173: Apr 28th 2011 at 12:33:09 PM

As they say, presentation is everything. You could go around giving people £50 notes, but say it with a snarl and there'll be a lot of torn currency in the street. Wander around handing out shovels of horsehit, but say it with a smile and people will thank you for the fertiliser to put on their rosebushes.

A complaint isn't someone saying you are doing something wrong, it is someone saying they are unhappy. Now you can tell that person to go away and be quiet, in which case they'll still be unhappy, and probably motivated to tell others, and generally badmouth the place. Or, you can say "okay, what seems to be the problem here, what is worrying you" and reassure them. Do that and not only have you converted that person back into a happy reader and editor, you've prevented all the other people they'd have told feeling unhappy too.

The point about "little troper meetings", well yeah. I have my contact info on my troper page, and I do get email from other tropers. And some of them do ask that I bring stuff up, I get a lot of "I'm scared to speak up in case I get banned" type of email. Which is kinda sad, no one should feel scared to voice their opinions.

My advice, my sincere, constructive advice, on how to resolve these problems before they start is more communication, and taking a softer line on people. Most people don't want to cause problems, they just want the mods to know they are unhappy and uncertain about what is going on and for the mods to acknowledge their fears. A post saying, "okay, we understand, we are listening, we'll look at what we are doing" is all most of them need. To have said their piece, to be reassured they've been listened too. You don't have to act on them, in fact to paraphrase Terry Pratchett listen politely to everything, but do what you think is best. But just send the message out that the mods listen and respect the individual posters.

We are capable of reading and understanding the difference between bitching and reasonable complaints. If I sound harsh, it's because I'm sick of seeing the same things over and over.
Emphasis mine Well the questions I would ask is why do you keep seeing the same thing over and over again? What is going wrong there? What part of the system is not working that is generating the same concerns over and over and over and over again? Lets fix that.

While we don't set out to alienate people, if a decision upsets you enough that you leave the site, that's really not anything that we're going to be able to fix

Except what happens is, those people don't leave straight off. First they either raise an issue on a discussion page (if it is a page issue) or they come to the forums. And they say "I have a problem with..." and get crapped on from a great height for raising a complaint. Then they either leave the site entirely and badmouth the site to everyone they come in contact with, or they hang around but just restrict their contributions to bitching and snide remarks because they've been burnt. These people who come here, editors and readers (because every troper is a combination of the two) are as much this site's customer as contributor. So maybe you should start treating them as such.

Now do not get me wrong. I like this site. I like just browsing almost as much as I do contributing (although I liked it more with the Japanese names and the Character tropes, but that is by the wayside), and this site is 90% brilliant. Like an inverse of Sturgeon's Law

That other ten percent though...eeeech. That needs serious work. And it is just three issues that would not take much to resolve.

The biggest issue is consistency. From top to bottom there is no consistency over anything, from forums, to mod resposnes, cut lists, everything depends on who picks it up. You even have mods and tropers inventing stuff on the fly, ad hoc. The solution to that is clear processes that do not vary regardless of the support behind them.

Coming in at a distant 2nd. Communication. There isn't enough of it. Solution, well, more of it and earlier. You are already on that though, as you've said upthread.

Third, product awareness and consumer relations. As you've said the site is bigger and has more people than ever in it. Which means you've got to start taking care of those people, and listening to their concerns. Individual users are a mixture of editor and reader, so you've got all the problems of employer and customer service wrapped up in one. I don't envy you it, I do not. But the solution is to be aware of that wide base, and tailor responses to it. That includes using the soft soap when someone comes into the forums saying they are having a problem. I'd also add making sure the merch you are selling matches the product on site. A month or so ago I reported that tropes that no longer exist or are hidden on the Darth Wiki of which we do not acknowledge were still being used on the Zazzle merch, when you rename or move stuff you;ve gotta keep the merch updated to reflect that too. Otherwise you are selling something that doesn't exist, that is just bad practice.

But fix the consistency and the communication will follow suit, and once communication is sorted, you can start addressing the consumer-base and it's worries and expectations.

edited 28th Apr '11 12:54:03 PM by CrypticMirror

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#174: Apr 28th 2011 at 12:38:05 PM

Better the honey than the vinegar, eh? I'll take that into consideration. For your part, do me a favor and tell your friends that we invite constructive criticism. For my part, I am not going to stand by and ignore it when people jump into a thread or a discussion page and hurl insults at the admins.

Well the questions I would ask is why do you keep seeing the same thing over and over again? What is going wrong there? What part of the system is not working that is generating the same concerns over and over and over and over again? Lets fix that.
You want an answer to that? I ascribe it generally to GIFT and specifically to the notion that the best way to "express one's opinion" on the Internet is half profanity, half death threats, and the third half calling people "gay".

Again, I refer you to the very first post in this thread as an example of the kind of unproductive complaining I'm talking about. I don't see any value in allowing this type of thing to become the standard means of expressing displeasure.

edited 28th Apr '11 12:45:25 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#175: Apr 28th 2011 at 12:49:23 PM

Of the 1% who do edit, the ones who care enough to contribute to administrative decisions are probably already here on the forums. The rest, well, there's a price to be paid for not caring.

I'll be blunt. As long as you and the other mods (since I'm assuming you're speaking for everyone here) hold this view, then

the same thing over and over again

is what you will probably keep seeing. I've seen far too many cases of people honestly not aware of changes in the works for that reasoning to be held as valid, and I'm honestly confused how you can still think that way. Regardless of whether their complaint is valid or not (and it is possible that the majority aren't anyway), it only spreads ill will if they don't get to make their complaint against a decision until after the fact.

edited 28th Apr '11 12:49:46 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

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